the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

As a related topic to the thread I started on running, I'd like to focus on the differences between traditional Chinese and Western classical cultures in terms of the ideal physique for a warrior.

The ideal warrior physique seen in ancient Greek and Roman arts are no different from that of a modern elite athlete -- with six-pack abs, bulging chests and biceps, and a relatively narrow waist; in contrast, a typical Chinese warrior or martial artist depicted in ancient boxing manuals almost always have a potbelly , wide hips, thin arms, and an unmuscular chest.


IMO, these obvious discrepancies are clues hidden in plain sight that can help us better understand how the ancient Chinese fighters viewed, trained, and utilized their bodies in ways that were very different from their Western counterparts.

I think the overly emphasized abs and chest are fairly modern thing even in the western world. Ares, Croisos and Zeus statues from ancient times:

Most common physique in western martial arts manuals

C.J.W. wrote:; in contrast, a typical Chinese warrior or martial artist depicted in ancient boxing manuals almost always have a potbelly , wide hips, thin arms, and an unmuscular chest.

You can't compare an ideal with manuals this way. Look at statues and paintings of Guan Yu and other warrior gods and deities from Chinese mythology they are all depicted as strong, big and powerful. That's the ideal of a Chinese warrior.

If you look at fighting and sword manuals from the medieval ages of Europe the people in the paintings are also depicted as common people. The ideals are ideals, mythological descriptions are mythological descriptions, manuals are manuals.

The human body is the human body; ideals are ideals. Generally, ideals are not the norm. That's why they're ideals. A human's physique will be determined by genetics and work/training. Some people will have great western-ideal physiques just because they're born that way. Some will be exceptionally strong or fast without any training. Personally, I don't think that generals in ancient armies exemplified the norms of their warriors. I think the generals were probably better fed and just bigger. Hey, I agree that the pot belly is a sign of good health in Chinese and many other societies. I also agree that the emphasis on an athletic type (deltamorph) body is relatively new, when it comes to our sedentary society. And it's especially true when it comes to the female figure. I think one can trace the western emphasis back to the ancient Olympic games and the word athlete. I think RobP's post of the Chinese wrestlers is a good example. But, I think that if ancient warriors did anything like this, their muscles would develop similarly to the way muscles do today.


Anyway, also found these pics and didn't know what to do with them.

You guys are clearly confused. I believe this is the perfect physique, east or west.

Yeah, way too many dick pics in the thread.

It seems the thread has veered off the subject I intended to discuss.

What I had in mind was that the ancient Chinese regarded dantien as the power source of the body, and that traditional CMA training has always focused on its development as well as the kua, waist, and hips. The result is that the lower body and trunk become thick, which often appear soft and flabby by our modern Western standards.

On the other hand, the ideal Western male physique for both fighters (e.g., gladiators in Roman art) and athletes has always emphasized a lean and muscular upper body, especially the chest, shoulders, and arms, as the sign of exceptional physical strength and vigor. The main source of power, therefore, is the upper body with the muscular force it generates.

Essentially, we are looking at the difference between a top-heavy (Western) and bottom-heavy (Chinese) view of the human body.

Look at this Xinyiluhe guy demonstrating dantien movements while explaining how they power and drive the limbs. Notice the absence of six-pack abs and muscular arms. He, in my opinion, is using and training the body following the ancient Chinese ideal and method.

The interesting bits start at around 2:00

C.J.W. wrote:As a related topic to the thread I started on running, I'd like to focus on the differences between traditional Chinese and Western classical cultutes

Frankly, I find the content of your last couple of posts to rather rascist, and as such, quite primitive. Westerners and Easterners bla bla bla. Western science is only beginning to understand what the East has known for ever, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended, speak how like. I just find it lacking in any sort of nuance, and does not stand up to close scrutiny. Debating the merits of various ideas is more fruitful than talking about which culture gets to take credit for their origins. IMO

Yes, here are fat CMA practitioners, but I'd be curious to see how the CMA guys spar with higher levels of resistance on a regular basis look. You can practice the CMA forms and body mechanics without the need of a highly conditioned body, it if you're wanting to train with a lot of resistance and take punishment, you have to be conditioned. My guess is the typical fat CMA guys are not engaging in much sparring with resistance. When all things are equal, skill, body mechanics, timing etc... the person with better conditioning and endurance will have a big advantage. The pic Rob posted about of the Shuai Jiao guys debunks the theory of the fat bellied CMA guys being the norm of the past. And before anyone says "well those guys are external ", look at Sun Lu Tang", Cheng Ting Hua, Zhang Zhao Dong, most of the Xing Yi guys... in the old days, when CMA guys fought, the fat martial artist was the exception, not the rule. Sure, the over development of specific muscle groups beyond their martial function were probably not the goal, but in western martial arts it wasn't the goal either. A certain amount of muscle development as a byproduct of the training happens when you train to have a base level of fighting fitness. Look at Muhammad Ali, he wasn't over developed. Look at the catch wrestlers of the past, many of which are relatively skinny.

Perhaps we can also partly attribute the extra girth around the waist to the individuals diet

UK wrestlers