the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Appledog wrote: And today we also have the benefit of scientific study, dozens of papers have been written even concering his nine turning method;

ex. https://sci-hub.ru/10.1007/s11726-016-0919-1, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8571850/, etc.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4818301066, etc

Also, of course, as noted, it was passed down traditionally as well, tens of thousands if not millions know it.

"When I was young, I was weak and often got sick. I had visited all different kind of doctors use different methods to cure illness. But I never got cured until I met Master Fang."

Thanks for posting this. Is this common in Taiwan?
Is there any other protocols of massage for different ailments that you are aware of?

Have you ever came across any martial types of massage for the abdomen?

D_Glenn wrote:

Appledog wrote: And today we also have the benefit of scientific study, dozens of papers have been written even concering his nine turning method;

ex. https://sci-hub.ru/10.1007/s11726-016-0919-1, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8571850/, etc.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4818301066, etc

Also, of course, as noted, it was passed down traditionally as well, tens of thousands if not millions know it.

"When I was young, I was weak and often got sick. I had visited all different kind of doctors use different methods to cure illness. But I never got cured until I met Master Fang."

Thanks for posting this. Is this common in Taiwan?
Is there any other protocols of massage for different ailments that you are aware of?

Have you ever came across any martial types of massage for the abdomen?

No probem, thank you for posting here, I am just happy to read your posts lol.

What I know, the particular sets and styles, are not at all common in Taiwan. I've never seen anyone do Sun style here either. But I am sure that the people here have variations that do the same kind of thing. Whatever people know over here, I am sure it operates on the same kind of human body. There are a great many variations of 'protocols'. I have found that they all are related and the main difference is in intensity. Seated, standing, still, motion, lying, pressing, rubbing, imagining, anything, it all has the same idea. Just different flavors, intensities, etc. for different kinds of people. That being said, there are intensities I have seen, and intensities I have felt, that are beyond what I can do, and there are also clearly intensities I am not aware of. Not knowing what is possible makes it difficult to research new things.

Re intensities, for example the leg point and rub techniques can really hurt. The face massage technqiues all seem to hurt. But if you accept the pain, as I have found, you get used to it and it helps you. You know you have hit the right spot when it is tender! Tender in the right way. So, they were demonstrated on me so I could feel where. And you don't forget that kind of painful feeling! But then you know how to do it in an 'intense' way. But there are also gentle ways. The gentle ways do the same thing as the intense ways but it takes a different kind of practice and probably fits a different personality. Then you have gentle qigongs versus hardcore arms-ripping-off qigongs and bone and tendon bending daoyins. It's not for everyone. And I suppose you can hurt yourself with some of these exercises.

I have come to understand something of the internal from my kidney stones. I have discovered that when you are fresh and young and uninjured it is actually very difficult to feel things like qi because it is natural. As you age and problems creep in, they afflict the qi and this shows up as a problem. Then you can feel the qi if you look at the problem because you feel the problem. (Otherwise you need a lot of mental imagery or hands on from the teacher, I speculate.)

It's all very interesting but I am going to need a lot more time to make sense of all this. It's a lifetime practice.

As for the abdomen, the primary practice is circular rubbing and it shows up in several different qigong sets. The other kinds of methods but I think that circular rubbing is a major one and that after that there are more effective ways to practice moving the abdomen. I saw a side to side seated practice once. And Fang Kai's contains a seated circular practice. Once you are familiar with a lot of variations you could create your own.

Interesting about the intensity. I didn’t think of that. Have you ever had the Japanese Hara massage? It’s where you completely ignore the center line, never press into the center. Using both hands they slowly press into one spot and go deep into your cavity. Then slowly release and move to a different spot and repeat.

Xingyiquan has a daily Dantian massage regimen. But it’s Inner Door only. I wonder if it’s similar to this Nine Rotations.

You mentioned kidney stones, I’ve never had them but learned about them when I was doing a Carnivore diet. Which is an Oxalate free diet, and your body starts releasing the Oxalates it’s stored up over the years. Oxalates will bind to calcium and become kidney stones. Or if you take a magnesium supplement, the oxalates will bind to it instead, and be safely excreted. Western medicine recommends a low oxalate diet when someone has kidney stones, but that only exacerbates the problem because their body will start dumping its stored oxalates. Magnesium supplementation is the only real remedy.

Images and instruction


So my acupuncturist had actually learned this from an old Daoist Acupuncturist in Taiwan and here’s the description she gave on what’s happening. You can actually start from Tanzhong point (rn17) instead of rn14. This motion going down will bring the heart down. Coming up from rn2 at the top of the pubic bone and then off to the sides of the centerline is moving up along the kidney meridians. So trace that path up to rn17. This is bringing the Kan (water) trigram above the Li (fire) trigram. This alone can help insomnia. The 5th is bringing the stomach energy down, while the 6th is bringing the spleen energy up, above the stomach. 7 and 8 are bringing the Liver energy down and you can actually do these at the same time.

D_Glenn wrote:Images and instructions- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8571850/

So my acupuncturist had actually learned this from an old Daoist Acupuncturist in Taiwan and here’s the description she gave on what’s happening. You can actually start from Tanzhong point (rn17) instead of rn14. This motion going down will bring the heart down. Coming up from rn2 at the top of the pubic bone and then off to the sides of the centerline is moving up along the kidney meridians. So trace that path up to rn17. This is bringing the Kan (water) trigram above the Li (fire) trigram. This alone can help insomnia. The 5th is bringing the stomach energy down, while the 6th is bringing the spleen energy up, above the stomach. 7 and 8 are bringing the Liver energy down and you can actually do these at the same time.

Yes, I had to check some charts, but the name of the point in the documents I was given is shanzhong (CV17). Interesting.

SO it seems that you begin at shanzhong and circle downwards to at least 14.

There seems to be something interesting about the xiphoid process, and possibly the body of it, but I cannot say more with confidence.

She said that most people have a trouble spot around CV 15, so it’s better to just start at CV17 to get that as well.
#1 is just a fairly large clockwise circle around CV17. Three sets of 9 rotations.
#2 and #3 can be combined. But it should be a lighter touch because most people’s CV/ Ren Meridian is sensitive. #2 is just clearing the path. This doesn’t have to be repeated 21-27 times if you don’t have time. Just say 9 times.
#4 should use the palm of your right hand and just be a firm straight line down the Ren Meridian. It’s faster so you can repeat three sets of 9, or just 9 times since the Ren can be sensitive.
#5-8 three sets of 9, or just 9 times
#5 should be firm because it’s the stomach, but #6 should be just a light touch because it’s the spleen. You can also think about returning or anchoring your ‘Yi’ to your spleen.
This is a self massage or it works better if a healthy person does it to you. She’s incorporating it into her practice.
Thanks again for posting this

I think it’s a great addition to the Internal arts, especially for practicing at night and bringing all that energy up. This is a more direct and tangible ‘Closing’ movement. And I think it actually utilizes the extra energy in a more positive way.

The above listed in an excellent introduction to Stomach/Spleen syndrome but it is just above basic first aid and serves
as a health enhancement method.
Hara Diagnosis by Matsumoto and Burch per its Japanese insight and clinical practice has proven to be a spring for better understanding and resolution
for Stomach /Spleen disorders needing a higher level of practice and mitigation of said disorders.

Many folk systems teach variations of the above and part of the patterns resemble each other. Sitting baduanjin a lotus position postures with turning
of waist and back and forth along with daoyin named routines using similar patterns to bring forth qi of stomach thereby allowing transportation and movement of qi to go where it is need to assist individual health.

yeniseri wrote:The above listed in an excellent introduction to Stomach/Spleen syndrome but it is just above basic first aid and serves
as a health enhancement method.
Hara Diagnosis by Matsumoto and Burch per its Japanese insight and clinical practice has proven to be a spring for better understanding and resolution
for Stomach /Spleen disorders needing a higher level of practice and mitigation of said disorders.

Many folk systems teach variations of the above and part of the patterns resemble each other. Sitting baduanjin a lotus position postures with turning
of waist and back and forth along with daoyin named routines using similar patterns to bring forth qi of stomach thereby allowing transportation and movement of qi to go where it is need to assist individual health.

I learned a Japanese Hara massage where using both hands you slowly press down into places on your abdomen, really deep, but never near your centerline/Ren meridian.

The sitting practice sounds great. I will have to look into that. Thanks

.

Here’s an interesting video that first shows the Cowface posture, or what my teacher Dr. Xie used as his primary sitting meditations, which he called the Aligned Knees Sitting posture. I would not try to get into it though like she shows in the video. There’s another way to get into and out of it that is actually a martial technique. Imagine the Xingyiquan dragon only you are spiraling down and up in a single spot with your body doing a 180.

But the most interesting part of this video is at the end, about fascia.



Link shown in the video: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9858880/

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D_Glenn wrote:

Appledog wrote: And today we also have the benefit of scientific study, dozens of papers have been written even concering his nine turning method;

ex. https://sci-hub.ru/10.1007/s11726-016-0919-1, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8571850/, etc.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4818301066, etc

Also, of course, as noted, it was passed down traditionally as well, tens of thousands if not millions know it.

"When I was young, I was weak and often got sick. I had visited all different kind of doctors use different methods to cure illness. But I never got cured until I met Master Fang."

Thanks for posting this. Is this common in Taiwan?
Is there any other protocols of massage for different ailments that you are aware of?

Have you ever came across any martial types of massage for the abdomen?

You seem really interested in massage for the abdomen. Have you posted several times about it, or do I keep reading the same posts over and over?

Regardless, what is it that you are seeking?

I was a massage therapist and postural (myofascial) body worker for nearly 20 years ending that career 12 years ago to pursue graduate work In sports biomechanics, and I have practiced qigong and martial arts for much longer. I know things that I would not remember I know, unless specifically prompted.

So, is there specific information you are trying to find?

twocircles13 wrote:

D_Glenn wrote:Have you ever came across any martial types of massage for the abdomen?

So, is there specific information you are trying to find?

For me, I'm interested on understanding what the abdominal massage is for, from a qigong perspective. Most other types of qigong I can figure out, but abdominal massage features prominently in three different qigong sets I know and I don't understand really what it is supposed to do.

Appledog wrote:

twocircles13 wrote:

D_Glenn wrote:Have you ever came across any martial types of massage for the abdomen?

So, is there specific information you are trying to find?

For me, I'm interested on understanding what the abdominal massage is for, from a qigong perspective. Most other types of qigong I can figure out, but abdominal massage features prominently in three different qigong sets I know and I don't understand really what it is supposed to do.

A thing to “sink the qi” ?, a way to relax mind ? When people are stressed it easily affects the abdomen/stomach negatively , so gently massaging the stomach one rubbing away the stress of the mind ?

I’m interested in the qigong aspect of the massage as well. It’s a Daoyin (guiding and leading) practice.

Yeniseri brought up the waist turning exercises. I found this simple qigong for the Dai Mai (Belt Meridian). In the description he talks about the Dai Mai.



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D_Glenn

the abdominal massage you posted is a very old practice
its based on - or the theory is similar to - very old muscle changing/marrow washing practice
(and that is the reason it uses the solar plexus and not ren 17 as the starting point)

it basically stimulates Qi
or fills the body with Qi
and the last exercise - rotating the body in a seated position - opens the vertebrata and lets the qi go inside the bone
you seem to be missing the last exercise

its recommended to practice 3x a day
but can do 2x is ok

its a mild practice - very safe
in terms of other similar muscle changing/marrow washing practices
(some of them can be rather intense)

muscle changing - in the sense of filling the interstitial spaces with qi


the modern versions of this i have seen - seem to be lacking
but this practice is fairly common in older chinese books


Franklin

By the way -- you mention ren 17. Commonly referred to as shanzhong. I heard it called danzhong, and, we have a five points awareness qigong. But yea we massage the solar plexus, it's like a turtle shell.