the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I am, in fact, a rather strong advocate of avoiding sparring as seen in most TMA schools; it gives false confidence, encouraging highly unrealistic techniques while simultaneously dipping the practitioner in an illusion that "this is training for how a fight will be!". Sparring is not, however, particularly similar to or representative of combat; the techniques which win sparring matches will get you killed on the street. You don't need to "close the gap" and "set up fakie combinations" or "start out throwing feints to feel the opponent out". Your light contact strikes in the training hall will magically transform into pulled feather-light touches in self defence.
Sure, it's important to train in an unrehearsed manner; sure, you need experience in dealing with the ranges and spatial controls of a fight, but I feel that sportive sparring sessions' inherent flaws are more hurtful than helpful if specific measures have not been taken to address its flaws.
We use something like a sparring match, but it is alien to a "real fight" and does not create false expectations. The self defence stuff we can address with alternative RBSD drills of various sorts.

Sparring doesn't have to be a 'sportive' points match. I feel the exact opposite to you JusticeZero:

I am, in fact, a rather strong advocate of sparring against resistance and with contact; it gives confidence, encourages highly realistic techniques while simultaneously giving the practitioner some experience of "this is training for how a fight will be!". Sparring is particularly similar to or representative of combat; the techniques which win sparring matches will work on the street. You need to "close the gap" and "set up fakie combinations" or "start out throwing feints to feel the opponent out". Your heavy contact strikes in the training hall will transform into real strikes in self defence.
It's important to train in an unrehearsed manner; sure, you need experience in dealing with the ranges and spatial controls of a fight, but I feel that the lack of sparring sessions are more hurtful than helpful if specific measures have been taken to address its flaws.
We use something like a sparring match, and it is close to a "real fight" and does not create false expectations. The self defence stuff we can also address with alternative RBSD drills of various sorts.

Thanks for posting that Tom.

Tim wrote:Contact sparring and grappling are also a 'laboratory' for you to experiment with which techniques YOU can actually apply against a resisting opponent. Just because your teacher or classmates can smash bones with a blow doesn't mean you necessarily can. You will never know what you can really do unless you have really done it. You must also practice sparring in all ranges and situations (striking and wrestling both standing and on the ground).

Precisely! I just did some experimenting in my modest sparring 'laboratory' last week - video on my YouTube page. Audio explains what's going on

http://www.youtube.com/user/macmus98

Tom wrote:One of the most, if not the most important aspect of success in a fight is mindset, next is experience, then physicality, finally specific technique.

Yes ! In chinese we say:
一膽二力三功夫

1. Courage
2. Strength
3. Gong Fu (technical skills)

YM

Good article, Tom. Thanks for posting it.

I think it all boils down to what you mean with the term "sparring". It´s such an incredibly wide field that it´s open to almost any interpretation.

I think that anybody with experience of real life attacks and violence would say that "working against an uncooperative opponent" is a given. As is doing the same in a multitude of ways where you include various surroundings such as different rooms, streets, your spatial limitations, surfaces, lighting (strobe lighting is fun) etc. And with access to all kinds of weapons ranging from a cup of coffee and up.

But I have seen many different teachers and students who have been investing time in, well, practices that really weren´t useful, but still called "sparring". Have done some of them too before learning more. I guess it all goes back to defining your purpose, and then choosing the right tools, one by one.

Anyway. Good article.

*Coffee. Wanders off, starts hand-grinding beans, singing contendedly to himself.*



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

Right. Lots of techniques that are adjusted to be able to catch an attacker hesitant to close range - if you ever need anything close to that in real life, you are NOT doing self defence and you need to stop attacking people who are running away from you. Graham, have you ever actually been in a self defence situation of any kind? Not a puffing match with some guy's inflated ego trying to prove dominance, but an actual attack. People get this fantasy that it's going to be like a sparring match on concrete against some stinky thug, like some sort of real life fighting game - "Joe Mack. Versus. Lito. Round one, begin." while spectators stand and gawk in the background.
In reality, there will most likely be multiple attackers or the threat of them, andit will pretty much start with you being plowed into in some form - there's no 'gap' to close. Most likely you'll already be losing before you get to move, with things getting worse for you every second, and you'll have to work your way back up. Bad people don't attack worthy challenges, they stack the deck until they estimate that they can't lose, then gank. It pretty much isn't going to be or feel anything like a dancy dancy sparring match.

+1

JusticeZero wrote:Right. Lots of techniques that are adjusted to be able to catch an attacker hesitant to close range - if you ever need anything close to that in real life, you are NOT doing self defence and you need to stop attacking people who are running away from you. Graham, have you ever actually been in a self defence situation of any kind? Not a puffing match with some guy's inflated ego trying to prove dominance, but an actual attack. People get this fantasy that it's going to be like a sparring match on concrete against some stinky thug, like some sort of real life fighting game - "Joe Mack. Versus. Lito. Round one, begin." while spectators stand and gawk in the background.
In reality, there will most likely be multiple attackers or the threat of them, and it will pretty much start with you being plowed into in some form - there's no 'gap' to close. Most likely you'll already be losing before you get to move, with things getting worse for you every second, and you'll have to work your way back up. Bad people don't attack worthy challenges, they stack the deck until they estimate that they can't lose, then gank. It pretty much isn't going to be or feel anything like a dancy dancy sparring match.

Does it have to? The question really isn't how closely does sparring mimic a violent encounter but does sparring develop skills and abilities that will be useful if not vital in a violent encounter. Of course a person training for solely self defense may want to use more scenario type sparring events that do mimic the type of likely encounters than a squaring off deal with rounds.

JusticeZero wrote:Right. Lots of techniques that are adjusted to be able to catch an attacker hesitant to close range - if you ever need anything close to that in real life, you are NOT doing self defence and you need to stop attacking people who are running away from you. Graham, have you ever actually been in a self defence situation of any kind? Not a puffing match with some guy's inflated ego trying to prove dominance, but an actual attack. People get this fantasy that it's going to be like a sparring match on concrete against some stinky thug, like some sort of real life fighting game - "Joe Mack. Versus. Lito. Round one, begin." while spectators stand and gawk in the background.
In reality, there will most likely be multiple attackers or the threat of them, andit will pretty much start with you being plowed into in some form - there's no 'gap' to close. Most likely you'll already be losing before you get to move, with things getting worse for you every second, and you'll have to work your way back up. Bad people don't attack worthy challenges, they stack the deck until they estimate that they can't lose, then gank. It pretty much isn't going to be or feel anything like a dancy dancy sparring match.

Yes, you are quite correct, Sir. If I am ever attacked in real life in 'Da Streetz' then I'll wait for the bell to ring before I start throwing punches, oh and also I'll make sure we're both wearing gloves and helmets. I'm also hoping for girls to come round with score boards after each round. After all, with only resisting sparring practice under my belt there is no way I'll be capable of making the mental adjustment necessary for anything other than a structured bout. I might as well just give up now!


b.t.w I'm assuming you've never sparred anyone in your life, right?

DeusTrismegistus wrote:

JusticeZero wrote:Right. Lots of techniques that are adjusted to be able to catch an attacker hesitant to close range - if you ever need anything close to that in real life, you are NOT doing self defence and you need to stop attacking people who are running away from you. Graham, have you ever actually been in a self defence situation of any kind? Not a puffing match with some guy's inflated ego trying to prove dominance, but an actual attack. People get this fantasy that it's going to be like a sparring match on concrete against some stinky thug, like some sort of real life fighting game - "Joe Mack. Versus. Lito. Round one, begin." while spectators stand and gawk in the background.
In reality, there will most likely be multiple attackers or the threat of them, and it will pretty much start with you being plowed into in some form - there's no 'gap' to close. Most likely you'll already be losing before you get to move, with things getting worse for you every second, and you'll have to work your way back up. Bad people don't attack worthy challenges, they stack the deck until they estimate that they can't lose, then gank. It pretty much isn't going to be or feel anything like a dancy dancy sparring match.

Does it have to? The question really isn't how closely does sparring mimic a violent encounter but does sparring develop skills and abilities that will be useful if not vital in a violent encounter. Of course a person training for solely self defense may want to use more scenario type sparring events that do mimic the type of likely encounters than a squaring off deal with rounds.

+ 1

DeusTrismegistus wrote:Does it have to? The question really isn't how closely does sparring mimic a violent encounter but does sparring develop skills and abilities that will be useful if not vital in a violent encounter. Of course a person training for solely self defense may want to use more scenario type sparring events that do mimic the type of likely encounters than a squaring off deal with rounds.

Very well written, Deus. Thanks.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

GrahamB wrote:

JusticeZero wrote:Right. Lots of techniques that are adjusted to be able to catch an attacker hesitant to close range - if you ever need anything close to that in real life, you are NOT doing self defence and you need to stop attacking people who are running away from you. Graham, have you ever actually been in a self defence situation of any kind? Not a puffing match with some guy's inflated ego trying to prove dominance, but an actual attack. People get this fantasy that it's going to be like a sparring match on concrete against some stinky thug, like some sort of real life fighting game - "Joe Mack. Versus. Lito. Round one, begin." while spectators stand and gawk in the background.
In reality, there will most likely be multiple attackers or the threat of them, andit will pretty much start with you being plowed into in some form - there's no 'gap' to close. Most likely you'll already be losing before you get to move, with things getting worse for you every second, and you'll have to work your way back up. Bad people don't attack worthy challenges, they stack the deck until they estimate that they can't lose, then gank. It pretty much isn't going to be or feel anything like a dancy dancy sparring match.

Yes, you are quite correct, Sir. If I am ever attacked in real life in 'Da Streetz' then I'll wait for the bell to ring before I start throwing punches, oh and also I'll make sure we're both wearing gloves and helmets. I'm also hoping for girls to come round with score boards after each round. After all, with only resisting sparring practice under my belt there is no way I'll be capable of making the mental adjustment necessary for anything other than a structured bout. I might as well just give up now!


b.t.w I'm assuming you've never sparred anyone in your life, right?

Actually JusticeZero is pretty accurate in saying that some sparring practices can cause bad habits. Especially his pulling punches comment. My teachers first black belt was a black belt in a karate style before he came to my teacher. When he would spar he was so used to karate point sparring where you reset after a technique lands that he would habitually just turn around and start walking away. My teacher broke the habit by punching him in the back of the head when he would do so. If you are used to going slowly and you use half ass blocks with no real strength behind them (because they work when playing pattycake) then when you speed up and someone throws a real committed punch at you your natural reaction will be a half assed block that will get bowled over and do nothing.

When it comes to pulling punches that can be a real obstacle. As has been mentioned before by people on here most humans have a built in response to NOT hit others. If you only ever spar with pulling your punches as most people do with light contact sparring then you will have a lot of difficulty throwing real full power technique at another person, and when you do try to do so you will often lose all or most of your technique that you have trained so hard for and look like any other untrained hillbilly. (universal you being used here) Using pads can help alleviate that problem but could also create a psychologically difficult act in hitting people without pads on and could mess up your distance if you only spar wearing gloves that make your hands 2" longer and your head 4" higher diameter.

The creation of bad habits from sparring practice is something that shouldn't be ignored, but at the same time sparring has too many benefits to NOT do it IMO.

I have been in a few sparring matches. I have also been involved in a couple fights. They are not in the least bit similar to each other, in spite of what is sold as the main advantage of sparring as a training method. The sparring students spent a lot of time trying to perfect things that were utterly ridiculous and counter-productive to a RBSD perspective, and patting themselves on the back for how realistic their training was and how prepared they were for real fights. Honestly, if that was their goal, they would have been better off spending that time on FORMS PRACTICE, let alone some solid combat drills.

One aspect in which sparring is very effective is to learn to deal with getting hit in the face... hard.
If you can learn to manage your fear reaction and also pain threshold then you are one step closer to being able to defend yourself.

Though I haven't had to defend myself since grade seven, so what do I know?