the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Hello

This is my first post, so bear with me... (for the interested, I've been studying Chen Style Taijiquan for approx 7 months, so I'm more or less a complete beginner).

I've noticed that some Taiji and Qigong practitioners (e.g. John Loupos) recommend 'spiralling' / 'torquing' the legs into the ground by twisting them outwards by a few degrees when standing, but without moving the feet.

I've tried doing this and it actually hurts my feet - it feels like I'm on the verge of straining or spraining them. And I really wasn't turning them very much (say, 5 degrees).

I was just wondering what everyone's opinion on this was. Is it something that everyone does?

Thanks!

Taijimonster

What context are you doing this in? Is it part of static posture training, part of movement transitions, part of fajin?

Oh I do a spiraling into the ground with certain movements but it is not held and it doesn't cause me any discomfort.

Thanks for the reply. I suppose I'm primarily thinking static postures. Bad idea?

taijimonster wrote:Thanks for the reply. I suppose I'm primarily thinking static postures. Bad idea?

Maybe, I have pretty good flexibility in my ankles and feet so I am having trouble twisting in a way that causes pain or discomfort but it may also be how you are doing it. I was able to manipulate my ankle joint in a way that reduced my Range of Motion and caused more tightness with the turning. I would best decribe it as contracting/collapsing the ankle. If you are doing that then it would be bad, but that may be normal for you. I would say try doing it with a feeling of the leg floating as its turning and see if it helps.

The twist should be delegated from the ankles and knees to the hip/kua IMHO.
There should be no tangible torque in any joints that weren't designed for torque... just common sense, no? Nothing at all in the knees, and maybe a tiny little bit in the ankles. Definitely nothing to a degree that would cause pain...

FWIW

Welcome to RSF and good luck with your training!

Just to check we're doing the same thing: are you keeping your feet in a fixed position while spiralling the legs?

It could just be that I have near-zero flexibility... sounds about right in my case. Thanks

Yes. I would also suggest not to exaggerate spiraling too much (at least not after 7 months), but that's just me.

As a side note, -- there are many schools of thought on how to train (in general) and sometimes they differ a lot, so I would say pick a good one and stick with it until you get somewhere. Many paths up the mountain, but to get to the top you have to pick one; if you switch midway between 2 or 3 different paths, you may never get to the top. Just a thought.

i think 7 months is just way too early for what you are trying to do. i think at this stage you will be doing it by command; and not by feeling. 7 months is just baby steps for chen taiji; i think its important to just relax and enjoy yourself at this stage.

i dun do taiji but from what i understand relaxing (song) kua and waist is very important to the correct study

It may be flexibility. I was keeping my foot planted.

I agree that it may be too early for you to worry about this little detail. It could also be you are tensing the ankle and foot when you twist causing pain and discomfort.

In Chen Taiji the legs -from the kua, through the thighs, knees, lower legs and ankles - DO spiral/rotate outwards though it is done within the 'frame' of the style, so in the knee joint, for example the turn is a micro-movement. This creates the rounded dang ("groin power") and "peng" in the legs, both of which are key attributes of Chen Taiji and readily visible in most practitioners. It is used in both moving and static postures. Yes, the feet move as a result of the leg movement...Taiji strives for natural, full-body movement, nothing is "anchored."

I can't speak for other styles of Taiji, but to me it looks as if this form of leg movement is either unique to Chen or emphasized much more in Chen. For eg, it is "wrong" in Chen style to let either knee sink, turn or collapse inwward, but I see this a fair bit in other styles of Taiji, so I assume it is style-specific.

Master He Jing-han once said to me something simple but profound:
Taiji trains open, Bagua closed, but they both lead to the ability to open and close.