Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

[jim]

My fighting background was in Choy Li Fut, not taiji, but my teacher was also a taiji man under Sia Mock Tie in Singapore. It's been more than 30 years but I remember clearly as a young CLF student asking him about my postures and if this was the 'correct' way to perform a certain technique, or should I extend more, or should I straighten my leg more etc etc.... One day he picked up a kwan dao and whacked me on the arse with it and said "I don't know - just do it so that it works for you!".

I went back to visit him in Singapore in the late 80's and found him with a few VHS tapes of unlicensed boxers in the UK. He grabbed me, sat me down, put on a tape that featured Lenny McLean and said "The only question you need to ask yourself is 'would it work against this man?'.

Sage advice I thought!

[amor]

you never list or say what your experience is. You use words like dantien, fully expecting others to believe there is such a thing, and then go on to limit, what others may not even believe in the first place. I would say for anyone who ascribe to Chinese thoughts on TCM it should be quite understandable how something like this would or could work.

You could say that my experience is based on that clip you posted of ms Bian Zhiqin. I know its not fake and I have been bounced around myself by teachers who have such skill. But if you think that words like dantien are not appropriate because you dont believe in then I have to disagree with you there because there is such a thing as a dantien from what was introduced to me.
But this 'bouncing around' while it looks interesting for those who believe it's not fake is more about building up the students chi energy so that it can be refined in this type of pushhands routine. The dantien refinement responds to pressure, which you're put under by your opponent while being in the basic bow stance, seeking to uproot the other which all comes into play via the mind and intent as you're probably well aware of, it's all about sticking, hiding within his form and and remaining not-tense so the opponent can't get a handle on your center. Usually when you go up against the teacher his internal force is a lot stronger than yours because he/she is more 'open' than the students so you end up getting bounced back as your own internal force gets struck. I could go more into about the path the energy takes, full/empty etc. but I am not sure because I haven't done this stuff for a while since my previous teacher passed away. But the point I'm making is that this method of training is totally to develop the student and not some fancy tricks to show of.

Now you may disagree with stuff I've said above such as existence of the dantien or the purpose of such training and borrowing force concepts in this scenario but you're quite welcome to explain your system as you've experienced it, like I've done, and understood it. As you mentioned elsewhere everyone has to find their own path right ?

The way that it works is pretty much what is seen, Just matters on degree. Most masters who's skill is real will not do it just to do it. Its not a trick and a person can be damaged. Always the words compliant are used and non compliant, meaning what? "following is leading, leading is following " is this being compliant?

Borrowing force takes on a whole new meaning, it's actually to develop the student, referring to what I what I was saying above

[windwalker]

Now you may disagree with stuff I've said above such as existence of the dantien or the purpose of such training and borrowing force concepts in this scenario but you're quite welcome to explain your system as you've experienced it, like I've done, and understood it. As you mentioned elsewhere everyone has to find their own path right ?

I think you may have misunderstood me. What I meant was that if one follows the tenants of TCM, it should be quite clear about how or why something like this works or should work. I happen to follow the Chinese thoughts on this but also have to express things in a slightly different way for my western students, even for some Chinese who grew up in the US.

If one accepts the idea and usage of the word "dantien" one would expect them to understand the rest but many do not, even though they might say they study qi gong, or understand what empty and full means its limited to their idea of it, not the reality of it.

FWIW a lot of the old masters could not really explain their views using western physic terminology (why would they?) , preferring to express them using their cultural terminology,
which depending on the age of the master may not be to clear to even the modern Chinese, this is starting to change as shown in some of the clips I posted.

Does it make any more or less real? Like many things it depends on ones experience, it takes a while even for those who've felt this to come to some type of understanding of the how, what, and why.
I also mentioned that for many years I really declined to say anything directly about it, even now instead of looking at something suggesting possibly ways it could work, or why it becomes challenged and mocked,

yet, other aspects upon which it's based on are not.

TCM
qi gong
acupuncture ect.

some might even argue that these disciplines also fail basic western testing methods depending on study viewed.
my point would be that if one accepts or understand one aspect of it, it would seem logical that by extension they would have to accept all.
in closing I feel there are probably a lot of people who have felt such things, but wisely dont say much about it

[Niall Keane]

the idea that where the center lies is not necessarily where the solid part is.
one way to move a person is to join with their center and move the center the body will follow

Sorry, just to be clear.... In the context of the cantilevered suspension of forks on the wine cork:
Are you suggesting with the quote above that you can "energetically" seize the "centre of gravity" that may rest outside of the physical body depending on balance dynamics? What are you seizing? The opponent's "energy field"?

Just thinking as an architect, as ive never had to calculate forces generated by a body which may pass under an arch / beam / doorway (outside of its weight which may effect the floor / road / foundations, but this is a separate issue, nothing to do with altering the transfer of weight of the main structure down onto the ground!) etc. etc. - anything that happens in the void has no effect on the rest of the structure. you can fly helicopters under bridges - suspension bridges even - like your forks, and unless they crash they have no effect!) is there something Architecture and Engineering is missing? If so it would be literally criminal not to point it out to save the lives of all those who use bridges and buildings!

Like I totally get feints and draws - "enticing the opponent with profit" (be that an opening to take you or a way to avoid being taken) this "game of chess" without the 20 minutes between moves is a truly high-level skill and separates pro-fighters from the rest. It takes years to understand and develop to be applied under the pressure of combat.

Thats why im wondering about this "join with their centre" vagueness? Do you mean void and solid / substantial, which can simply mean void - absence of support between legs, or substantial - in the direction of supporting legs?
Or do you actually mean "not where the solid part is" to mean outside the physical body because that does sound like Jedi sh1t?

[Niall Keane]

yet, other aspects upon which it's based on are not.

TCM
qi gong
acupuncture ect.

some might even argue that these disciplines also fail basic western testing methods depending on study viewed.
my point would be that if one accepts or understand one aspect of it, it would seem logical that by extension they would have to accept all.

This is not logical at all!!!

Personally :
Tui Na (deep tissue type massage) - sure
Distance Chi Healing - get real!!!

As an Irishman I accept and enjoy many aspects of Gaelic culture, do i accept it all?
Well I don't capture people to imprison them in Wicker Men and burn them alive yet I can enjoy a good game of hurling.
Illogical?

[windwalker]

Are you suggesting with the quote above that you can "energetically" seize the "center of gravity" that may rest outside of the physical body depending on balance dynamics? What are you seizing? The opponent's "energy field"?

I try not use the word energy to much as in the English sense of the word it as a meaning that in this context it would not meet, it tends to be misleading if used in this way, in Chinese they would refer to it as the qi chong or qi field, Here many talk of centers and joining with it, the basic idea of inducing the other to some how lose their sense of balance or disrupt it, leading it as some might say. What ever one calls it, there is an area of sense of space. Our intention moves ahead of a physical act prior to the body arriving there. like driving a car, throwing a ball, shooting a gun. People talk of up rooting, rooting, sinking and floating accepting the fact that the perception of ones sense of gravity can be moved internally.

In the sword arts of the Samurai, it is known that beginners have their minds in their hands, advanced practitioners have their mind in the tip of the sword blade, but the master has their mind extended out past the blade. Today, however, people have become so locked in their heads that their minds do not even reach their hands, or much of anywhere else in their body for that matter. The challenge facing modern instructors is to assist students is dropping their mind into their body in order to then direct it to their hands and beyond.

Entering is first and foremost a mental technique, and I will begin with the mental approach because that directly correlates with how it is applied. We often hear the statement that a fight is decided before the first punch is thrown. In most cases, this is true, and the one to successfully occupy the empty space is usually the victor.

http://spiritualwarriormastery.wordpres ... irimi-iri/

note: presenting some ideas in an an attempt to answer a question. not prove or disprove only provide a context that might help make some things a little more understandable.

[windwalker]

As an Irishman I accept and enjoy many aspects of Gaelic culture, do i accept it all?

had to laugh thanks,,,

a good friend of mine was Irish, He often would tell me how the Irish where responsible for creating much of the civilized world
real stand up guy, with him it was true, he could and did love his drink.

with TCM, there are many studies that call into question as to weather its a valid model or not, or even weather it even works or not.
if one accepts something like qi for example, it would seem by extension they would be forced to accept the other aspects of it.

the mind leads the qi, the qi leads the body. first in mind then in body.

[dspyrido]

WW - can you clarify - if an experienced martial artist were to touch & slightly lean on an empty force master on the shoulder - do you feel that with a slight shuffle the slightly leaning martial artist would go flying 10ft+ back?

Caveats -
* Any empty force master will do
* The experience martial artist will not elect or want to be compliant in anyway

[windwalker]

pointless

[dspyrido]

So ... no? It wont work in the scenario where the slightly leaning martial artist is not compliant and the master can only shuffle slightly and send them flying...

Another caveat - we are not talking about a student of the EF master.

[windwalker]

wow

have a nice day.

[johnwang]

one way to move a person is to join with their center and move the center the body will follow

One famous scholar Li Ao in Taiwan said, "Some one may say that you are a SOB. I can say that you are a SOB, I can also prove that you are indeed a SOB." I love his saying very much. To say someone is a SOB is easy. To prove that someone is a SOB will take some effort.

I have put up many clips in RSF because I like to use clips, pictures to support my words.

The following picture can explain "One way to move a person is to join with their center and move the center the body will follow". If you step your leg deeply between your opponent's legs, you are taking his center.

[Niall Keane]

^thats what I was taught and is my understanding too John. And that your primary aim is to take your opponents centre, from forward or behind him, and this "ambition" should govern footwork method used.

[dspyrido]

wow

have a nice day.

You to.

But I don't see any answer to the question. I thought it was very simple direct question that could be answered with just a yes/no and would clarify your entire posts nicely.

I read your posts and cannot tell if you are coming from a extreme sensitivity angle which utilises drawing in by creating the illusion that a barrier exists only to have it fade while you loose balance .... or the other stuff.

[Niall Keane]

http://youtu.be/t6XldR7pCFI


[youtube]t6XldR7pCFI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://youtu.be/t6XldR7pCFI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://youtu.be/t6XldR7pCFI[/youtube]

hmmmmm, I've exhausted all the usual ways I know to post a youtube vid? Is it because it's .be?

Anyway the video clean-linked first is worth watching.