The tragedy of Tai Chi teaching

[Bhassler]

Great post, Danny. I look forward to reading more of what you have to say.

[I-mon]

Thank you for that excellent post. It is a wonderful thing when people with deep practice and experience share what they know.

[depth123]

I am glad that people here are expressing joy and clear mindfulness in the art that I have dedicated much time too.

The subject of relaxing is something I did not touch in my last words.

I will keep it simple in terms of how to practice and bring real results.
The arm is made up of 3 joints. The shoulder, elbow, and wrist. Anyone who has practiced with an accomplished master will know that the touch of the master's hands seem to feel very soft. But when you try to push the hands in, it seems impossible to do so. This skill is established when everything is connected. The spine must be straight, the hips must be lifted on top of the rear kua. Do not lean on the rear kua and with someone to practice with you will see that your root will break at the lower spine. The hips must be lifted forward and up on top of the rear kua so that it will create a structure. I am aware that it is difficult to express this by words, so I will move on. The head is up, don't slouch. Stand like a model.

Now the basics on using the arm. Once the body is connected, the hands become an issue. We tend to use our muscles in our arms excessively, thus canceling all our efforts in connecting the rest of the body. If you want to use the hands, it would be better to use your elbow. I do not mean to only use the elbow. Lets say you do the classic bajiquan elbow strike. Keep it straight and allow someone to push the elbow. You will feel stronger because the elbow is closer to your torso. Now extend you hand and allow someone to push your hands. You will feel weaker because the hand muscles are farther away from the torso. Therefore in order to utilize the strength that we find from the elbow, we extend the hand but we do not push with the hand. We push with the elbow. The hands will be relaxed, and since we push the elbow into the hands, there is support for the hands. The hands will feel soft but strong. Steel wrapped in cotton.

So in terms of relaxing, I ask you try this method and if you do not understand, feel free too pm me and i will try to help you out.
I warn you, if you try to relax as in wiggling or feeling soft, you do not understand the inner meaning and i dare you to try it out in a fight. You will lose, and your body will naturally stiffen up anyways so that it can protect itself.

[allen2saint]

When discussing Picasso, remember, he did years and years of this:



Before he was capable of this:



And when fools in the art world went right to the latter to ape his style, their lack of skill showed.

Much with acting or any other art, you need to build a foundation before you can create and go to that "empty place."

[littlepanda]

It is unfortunate for practitioners such as myself who have developed internal skill that was passed down from generation to generation. I practice Practical Method Chen Style Taijiquan. My teacher Jeong won-il taught me as his teacher Fan de chen taught him. Fan de chen was taught by Hong junsheng. It is a dedicated practice that we are preserving so that it does not lose any inner meaning. We teach fundamentals from our circles. Thanks to Hong Junsheng, our form and movement is exactly how we practice our application. There is no deviation from the form and the application. So there is clarity in our art and we promote our students to copy our movements. Other styles have their own methods of teaching but we strive to get straight to the point. It takes dedication to practice and master it, and even harder so with all the convoluted information about the art that has been poisoning this art in the west as well as the east.

What convoluted information do I speak of? I may come up as controversial but it is that reason I speak out. It is a tragedy that our system and beloved art is reduced to opinion and not a general agreement which makes sense in terms of reality. We should not bring out the supernatural in this case of a very natural art. Which can be produced and replicated by human beings which we can generally all agree are part of the natural.

The question of Dantien and Qi usually comes up from beginner students and unfortunately some self proclaimed advance students.
Our practice do not press on our students about Daniten or Qi. There is not practical use. What is it to us that there might be a mystical ball moving around our stomach?
Qi never comes up in our classes, because it is hard to define Qi, and it has no benefit in the individual in the learning process of the art. I do not discount the existence of Qi or Dantien, but it is known in our style that it is not required. We leave that to the CM doctors and Qigong instructors. Please as serious practitioners, do not trust what you feel but see if your practice is bringing real results of skill. There are many who can live in dreamland.

The question of the posture.
My grandmaster told my master that we should stand tall like a model. Your spine should be straight. We warn our students that curving your spine excessively like an old man or a hunch back can be detrimental to your practice.

Our leg positions have a yin and a yang. But what does that mean? It only means that one side is the center(yang) and the other side is the place where it holds up the yang (yin). The yang is one block from the head to the front foot. The yin is the leg from the rear kua to the rear foot. The yins job is to hold up the body at an angle to hold up any outside pressure from an opponent. The yang job is to create a solid structure so that energy can transfer down to the yin. For example, a bar of steel against a corner will clearly transfer the force you put in from one end to the other. Now if you try it with a rubber stick and it bends from your force, we can conclude that the force you put in the end of the rubber stick lost a lot of energy in terms of how it transferred from one end the other other. That is why we keep the yang per say solid. The yins job is to then absorb the pressure coming in and use the built up pressure to bounce, neutralize, or strike the opponent. Why is the yin and yang only discussed in superficial terms of open and close? Who can decipher that? It needs to be explained as such and shown by a teacher who has the skill and understands proper body mechanics of taijiquan.

Suspended head, Contain the chest and pluck up the spine.
Suspended head means to keep your head up. Do not imagine your dangling from a string or such silly ideas that have no use for war. It means keep your head up.
Contain the chest and pluck up the spine does not mean to collapse the chest and pluck it up so you look like a hunch back. Contain a chest from my master's words is that it means to make your chest or upper torso into a container. Container of your organs inside. If you are collapsing your chest in, I would consult a medical professional and see if it is really beneficial to your heart and lungs. Please if anything listen to this advice. Do not collapse your chest.

Weight distribution
60/40 is the safe spot, but I would go far as to say its almost actually 50/50. But it can change according to how hard someone is pushing against you, and what angle they are coming from. Finding center is not finding the exact center but finding balance between the weight and the lever inside your body. If someone pushes you with immense force, you would not need to shift your weight. You will have all the pressure needed to fight back. If someone is attacking with weak force, the center and weight has to be shifted forward so that it will create the pressure required to fight back. This is a sophisticated art of balancing and intellect of body mechanics. This art isn't static and it is open to interpretation on how to use it with the basic skill set that was impressed on by a great teacher.

Silk Reeling.
Silk reeling is to change the opponents angle of attack without the opponent realizing. The turning of the bones and joints can create a push to the chest to them pushing downwards with just a slight turn of the arm. It is simple but sophisticated on how it can be used to create a better strategic position for you and a worse position for your opponent. That is why rotation is such an important skill in taijiquan.

These are many more things that i can talk about. If you would like to know more detail I am open to explain. It is an extreme tragedy of how the state of this art turned out to be. If there are any questions I am willing to discuss more tragedies I think are taking place by the people who in the first place promote it.

Wonderful post. Thanks for taking the time.
I have some questions?

What is your view on double-weighting?
How do you train/use your kua so that the knees stay in line with your toes? Also how do you avoid the swaying of the hips while moving?

Thanks in advance

[Taste of Death]

Now the basics on using the arm. Once the body is connected, the hands become an issue. We tend to use our muscles in our arms excessively, thus canceling all our efforts in connecting the rest of the body. If you want to use the hands, it would be better to use your elbow. I do not mean to only use the elbow. Lets say you do the classic bajiquan elbow strike. Keep it straight and allow someone to push the elbow. You will feel stronger because the elbow is closer to your torso. Now extend you hand and allow someone to push your hands. You will feel weaker because the hand muscles are farther away from the torso. Therefore in order to utilize the strength that we find from the elbow, we extend the hand but we do not push with the hand. We push with the elbow. The hands will be relaxed, and since we push the elbow into the hands, there is support for the hands. The hands will feel soft but strong. Steel wrapped in cotton.

This is incorrect. The fingertips lead with heavy elbows. Always having an in one's hands and body allows one to put one's weight on the opponent. This is why one does not need to lead from the elbows. By using an one has a true connection to the opponent and greater control than using the elbows. And then one pushes from the spine while maintaining one's structure. If your strength comes from your elbows than you are not utilising your full power. That last part may be the understatement of the year.

Steel wrapped in cotton refers to the fingertips grasping like a cat's claws extending. The grasping connects the tendons (as one grasps with the first knuckle of the fingers try feeling it in the first knuckle of the toes) and the body becomes one tendon. One does not squeeze or hold the cotton, it is wrapped in the steel hand (made like steel by the tendons while still being soft).

[depth123]

To taste of death.

I would like to say that that power comes from connection. And I believe we both agree to that. I may be at fault for using classical terminology which can cause confusion. Such as steel wrapped in cotton. Just to be clear the hand should be supported by the elbow just as i had said before. The real power comes from the rear leg. You must be able to use a horizontal power and a vertical power. Horizontal power is using the arm, and vertical power is using the leg. Both must be utilized at the same time to create force. Connection is required because F = MA. Our aim is to increase mass without increasing weight. Therefore we bring connection to our body wholly to utilize the ground by pushing with our rear heel.

I also tried to be clear that i do not mean to only use the elbows. The hands lead the elbows when pushing out, and elbows lead hand when pulling in. This is core principle within our style. The subtlety I was trying to show you guys is regarding mechanics. I said the hand is extended out, but the elbows are pushing towards your hands therefore it creates "support" for your hands. Such as the shoulder "supports" your elbows. Such as the spine "supports" your shoulders. The hips "supports" the spine. The rear kua "support" the hips and so forth to the ground. I hope this makes things clear. The real power I must say comes from the rear heel.

[charles]

Connection is required because F = MA. Our aim is to increase mass without increasing weight.

I was with you up to this point. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

The only way to increase mass without increasing weight is to decrease the acceleration due to gravity, since weight, a force, is equal to the mass times the acceleration due to gravity. How do you increase mass?

[depth123]

To littlepanda.

Double heavy in simplest terms means the arm and leg connection is wrong.
To be clear with arm usage, we agree that an is using the palm. chai is using the blade of the hand. Ji is using the back of the arm and hand. peng is using the fingertips to pierce, liu is to pull the elbow, etc..

The arm must click with the legs. For chai using the right arm, the rear leg must be the left leg. It will create a diagonal support for the arm.
The chai using the right arm, can not be supported by the rear leg if it is the right leg. That is double heavy.
In just means your not using the moves correctly. Something is wrong in terms of arm placement or leg placement.

Look at hong junsheng and see his postures. You will see placements of his arms according to his feet are always consistent. You will never see right handed chai with the rear leg being the right foot.

To train your kua, sit in a mabu stance. Place your hips on top of your kua. Lower you stance and you will notice there is a point where you can not go down anymore. That is a good sign. If you can go down and your butt touches the ground then i means your hips are not on top of your kua. Once your in the mabu stance, use the left leg to rotate to the right with the left kua. After you made a complete 90 degree turn from mabu, use the right leg and kua to rotate to the left 180 degree, and do it over and over again. Once you achieve flexibility in the kua, allow someone to push you in 3 simple angles. Sit in mabu, and let them push the side. rotate to one side and you will be in a bow stance. Let your helper push you in the front. Then the more difficult one, allow someone to push you from the back once you understand how to support yourself.

The kuas function as a lever. the rear kua (yin) is supporting the body (yang) therefore the rear kua will be lower then the front kua. The front kua will be higher the the rear kua. This is observation from the movement and not something i force. If you have correct structure then this up down motion of the kua will happen naturally. So if I turn right, the right kua will be higher and the left kua will be lower. The right side will be yang, and the left side is yin. The right side is the center, and the left side is where i rotate with. I do not know what you mean by swaying of the hips. Hopefully the training I have explained will get rid of it naturally.

[depth123]

To Charles,

Lets say I pull back my arm and punch as hard as I can with my arm. We can conclude that help with torque from the hips and such can help accelerate the punch but the force would equal mostly to the mass of the arm and how fast i was able to accelerate it. Since we use our rear heel to attack, we in a sense are throwing our entire body into an attack instead of persay a body part such as an arm or a leg. Therefore we can agree that my mass has increased to use greater force, using my entire body instead of just using my arm.

Now how is that possible. Well you must learn taiji or xingyi, or bagua. We are siblings and we all utilize this method. Now we emphasize slowness to make sure everything is tight and connected. Then we use speed such as in our erlu to create acceleration. I hope this clears things up.

[charles]

Since we use our rear heel to attack, we in a sense are throwing our entire body into an attack instead of persay a body part such as an arm or a leg. Therefore we can agree that my mass has increased to use greater force, using my entire body instead of just using my arm.

In simple language, you are putting your "weight behind" the action, harnessing all or most of the body's mass/weight. Doing so isn't unique to Taijiquan. There is an additional mechanism involved, beyond simply moving a rigid mass.

Then we use speed such as in our erlu to create acceleration.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. However, speed is not acceleration. Speed does not create acceleration. Speed, itself, is unrelated to force. Acceleration is the rate at which velocity ("speed") changes. Force is proportional to the rate at which velocity changes. (Velocity ("speed") is defined as the rate at which distance is changed.) In more confusing terms, force is proportional to the rate at which the rate of distance is changing.

Momentum is mass times velocity. Momentum plays a big role.

I'm really not big on attempting to use Western physics to describe what is happening. What is happening is much more complex than the usual simple analysis that people put forth. But, if people are going to attempt to use Western physics to describe things, the physics needs to be applied correctly. The terms are, generally, very well defined and don't mean whatever anyone wants them to mean.

I like what you have written and it is clear that you have a deep understanding of the Practical Method. I encourage you to continue sharing what you know.

[littlepanda]

I do not know what you mean by swaying of the hips.

I'll give you one example.
At 0:55 you can see that when he punches his hips are literally shaking. This becomes more pronounced during movement and when there is load.....which is something to be avoided in internal arts.

Hopefully the training I have explained will get rid of it naturally.

thanks for the tips



.

[Bao]

When discussing Picasso, remember, he did years and years of this:

[img]http://mesosyn.com/pp-e4.jpg

Before he was capable of this:

[img]https://nordonart.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/lot-29.jpg

And when fools in the art world went right to the latter to ape his style, their lack of skill showed.

Much with acting or any other art, you need to build a foundation before you can create and go to that "empty place."

Picasso experimented very early. He made this when he was 14 years old:
http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthis ... e-1903.jpg

He did not only understand the importance of technique and foundation, but also the importance of the creative process.

If you really want to learn foundation, you must make it your own property. You really make it your own property by understanding it by yourself. To understand it by yourself, from yourself, you must experiment and be able to judge by yourself what is right and what is wrong. Dogmatic teaching without thinking and without creativity is the opposite to really teach something. 99% of the tai chi teachers teach their students to copy, not to how to think or develop something within themselves. Another post of "this is how things should be" won't help anyone to develop true understanding of the art. Thinking is not doing. Doing without thinking and judging is not really learning.

[Graculus]

Picasso experimented very early. He made this when he was 14 years old:
http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthis ... e-1903.jpg

Not to take anything away from your argument, but I think you got your paintings mixed up – Picasso painted La Vie when he was in his early 20s.

graculus
http://www.ichijoji.blogspot.com

[allen2saint]

This example still has recognizable human figures, a very clear and balanced visual composition. I fail to see how this changes anything. The point is that Picasso developed a foundation through hard work and developing skills every visual artist had to develop. Then, after long years, he evolved into something completely unique. That's very different than an artist who "develops his own style" out of the blue because he can't function any other way. Might it be nice? Sure. Will it have the depth of a guy who understands and has developed the foundation of years and years of working hard in the medium? Not for me.

Every artist "owns" their foundation if they make the art work. And I don't hear anyone here advocating for mindless repetition, but if you mistake that for what the musicians call "chopping wood" or paying dues in the field, then I think your view of what art can be is limited.