the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Appledog wrote:Of course, there are many more principles not included here -- I think someone mentioned Dong Yingjie's 20 important principles.

Just to clarify - the link you provided states these 10 points are from Chen Weiming's training manual. YCF's training manual has 10 rules for practice and 10 rules for the body and there is some overlap, but there are differences as well. YCF's first training manual was ghost written by DYJ.

身法
RULES FOR THE BODY

提起精神
[1] Raise the spirit.
虛靈頂勁
[2] Forcelessly press up your headtop.
含胸拔背
[3] Contain the chest and pull up the back.
鬆肩墜肘
[4] Loosen the shoulders and drop the elbows.
氣沉丹田
[5] Energy sinks to the elixir field.
手與肩平
[6] The hands are at shoulder level.
胯與膝平
[7] The hips are at knee level.
尻道上提
[8] Tuck in the anus.
尾閭中正
[9] The tailbone is centered.
內外相合
[10] Inside and outside merge together.

not sure it matches what he was looking for. this one from https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... hiyong-fa/

Lift up the back
Hands at shoulder level
Hips at knee level
Seem to be mis translations

wayne hansen wrote:I have seen a lot of Chen and most I have seen
Close the back
Protrude the chest
Lift the elbows
Yes plenty of other styles also do this including those who call themselves Yang

Can say the same about 99.99% of all TJQ out there. It’s not the style, it’s a practitioner that matters. To some extent, also their lineage, since it can shed some light on what kind of knowledge they had access to and who they looked up to during their formative years.

everything wrote:

身法
RULES FOR THE BODY

提起精神
[1] Raise the spirit.
虛靈頂勁
[2] Forcelessly press up your headtop.
含胸拔背
[3] Contain the chest and pull up the back.
鬆肩墜肘
[4] Loosen the shoulders and drop the elbows.
氣沉丹田
[5] Energy sinks to the elixir field.
手與肩平
[6] The hands are at shoulder level.
胯與膝平
[7] The hips are at knee level.
尻道上提
[8] Tuck in the anus.
尾閭中正
[9] The tailbone is centered.
內外相合
[10] Inside and outside merge together.

not sure it matches what he was looking for. this one from https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... hiyong-fa/

Does he mention anywhere that these requirements are just a baseline and when the connected body moves, everything is starting to turn and twist? Just can’s stop being amazed how a lot of YCF’s followers take a static posture based on these points and then move like a piece of lumber

wayne hansen wrote:Lift up the back
Hands at shoulder level
Hips at knee level
Seem to be mis translations

It’s also in Chinese so you can look it up.

含胸拔背
[3] Contain the chest and pull up the back.

But, I’m interested in your reasoning.
Why do you think "pull up" is a mistranslation?
No hidden agenda, just curious about your personal thoughts.
As in, What does Wayne do with his back?

Appledog wrote:What exactly are Yang Cheng-Fu's 10 important points, where do they come from...

Not sure if this answers your question but...

Origin of the “Ten Essentials”
Yang’s Taijiquan started from our grandmaster, Yang Lu-chan, who is my great-grandfather, then went to my grandfather, Yang Jian-hou, and grand-uncle Yang Ban-hou, and to my uncle Yang Shao-hou, and my father, Yang Cheng-fu, passing through three generations and molding gradually to the present form of Yang’s Taijiquan.

These "Ten Essentials” are the result of their diligent practice.
These are the rules that must be followed as you practice the Yang style Taijiquan.
If you follow the principles—the rules and guidelines—you will accomplish something worthwhile.

As you practice Yang’s Taijiquan, the ‘Ten Essentials” become the guidelines for you.
These ten principles deal with some common areas as we practice Yang style Taijiquan.

From from Traditional Yang Family Style Taijiquan
By Yang Zhenduo

Concave the chest
Convex the back
Make more sense to me
I don’t read Chinese so I can’t say
However all my teachers did and spoke English fluently one being an English professor
I was lucky gto have trained in Malaysia HK and Taiwan where English was a strong influence
I was discussing Wu,s Gold book with my Wu teacher
He said it was hard to explain and his English was first rate
He then said
Your Teacher(an Englishman) has the best understanding of the classics and how they apply I have ever seen
And my teacher is a scholar in Classical Chinese
So no I can’t read the original but many that do just don’t get it
The 6 part doco on the other thread shows that just because people are in China and exposed to real stuff they don’t always get it

baseline

suppose Tiger Woods, Steph Curry, or Serena Williams gave a "masterclass" on how to hit a golf ball, shoot a basketball, or serve a tennis ball. It would all be a "baseline", and people everywhere might claim that's exactly how they do it. Somewhere in that Yang translation, they state the obvious that some people have more talent, work harder, etc.

Yeah, it matters who is doing the "ten points" ... quite a lot. As in everything.

suppose the levels look like this.


you get a Serena Williams or YLC to the extreme right of that curve. They can tell you what to do, but it might be difficult to just get to the middle of the curve. making shit up might seem to work just as well, so then you think you understand as well as they do, or worse, that Williams or Yang was wrong.

wayne hansen wrote:Concave the chest
Convex the back
Make more sense to me

Thanks for sharing how you do things

wayne hansen wrote:He then said
Your Teacher(an Englishman) has the best understanding of the classics and how they apply I have ever seen
And my teacher is a scholar in Classical Chinese

What’s the name of that enlightened individual?

HotSoup wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:He then said
Your Teacher(an Englishman) has the best understanding of the classics and how they apply I have ever seen
And my teacher is a scholar in Classical Chinese

What’s the name of that enlightened individual?

I'm guessing the late Dan Docherty, may he rest in peace.

Edit. Though he was actually Scottish so I may be wrong,
either way a very skilled practitioner.

No I have never met Dan

HotSoup wrote:Does he mention anywhere that these requirements are just a baseline and when the connected body moves, everything is starting to turn and twist? Just can’s stop being amazed how a lot of YCF’s followers take a static posture based on these points and then move like a piece of lumber

Exactly!

What too many seem to not recognize is that "The Classics" are not a detailed how-to instructional manual. At best, they are individual's attempts to, as best they can, put into words aspects of an experiential art that can't be expressed adequately in words. The challenge with trying to put into words things that are experiential is that the words are inadequate and can often be interpreted in many ways, at least some of which are a misinterpretation of the author's intended meaning. That is why the primary learning needs to be hands-on from a skilled practitioner who can allow the student to put his hands on the teacher to feel what the teacher is doing and the teacher can provide hands-on corrections to the student with or without words to accompany those corrections. The posture, itself, matters. The correction, itself, matters. The abstract words don't really matter. The map is not the terrain.

While it can be helpful to try to interpret what the authors of the Classics meant, it isn't an effective means of instruction. The writings are far too vague, too easily misinterpreted and probably were never intended to be how-to instructional material.

What often seems to happen with those reading The Classics is that people read individual lines of the Classics without taking them into the context of the rest of what is written. For example, The Classics go into some detail about the necessity of being able to change, to differentiate yin from yang, to differentiate empty from full, to not be double-weighted, when one part moves, all parts move, etc. The Classics don't explicitly state that the parts of the body are continually changing/moving, but it is easily inferred if one reads them as a whole. That is the antithesis of many people's interpretation and one should not move with, for example, a continual "Tuck in the anus", nor "The tailbone is centred" in a static position throughout movement or having the chest sunk/hollow/empty in a static position during movement. Interpreting individual statements in the context of the whole matters.