the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

windwalker wrote:

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There have been different opinions and opinions from ancient times to the present, but Mr. Wang Peisheng summed it up in four words: “the resultant force is zero”.

Feel if one can follow this,,,speed of practice, is in material

You say some whacky shit but sometimes you make a whole lot of sense.

dragonprawn wrote:Do you change speeds in kicks, spins or otherwise within a single form?

Form is used to record information. It's used for teaching and learning. It's not used for training. You take information out of your form and make it into a drill. you can train your drill in any speed that you may like. In the beginning training stage, you may want to use slow speed to develop your 6 harmonies. After you have passed that stage, you should train for combat speed. Old XingYi saying said, "Any technique that take more than 1/2 second is bad technique.

First....
What is a Quan?
A collection of applications or techniques put into a choreograph for both retention and cataloging the strategy and tactics of an art. (an ingenious way at that...)

Even in our long form we are told Yang Cheng Fu took out double jump kick so the form could be practiced slowly and at a uniform pace.

Did he? Might be it was never there to begin with. Chen Fu had his picture taken center stage with some serious heavy weights and that should tell you something. Chen Fu's disciples in their prime IMO where pretty legit. Chen Man Ching.. I saw footage of him before he came to America. I got to believe a lot of what Robert Smith wrote about him. Dong Ying Jie, & his son Dong Hu Ling. Fu Zhongwen or his son Fu Sheng Yuan. (Ever see the vid of Fu Sheng Yuan practicing Tou shou with his son? Talk about using someone as a rubber ball, slams him off a wall multiple times. Where did Sheng Yuan learn that from? His dad, and where did he learn that from? Probably Chen fu. Wouldn't you get mentally and physically tough pretty quick if your sparring involves getting slammed up against the wall like a rubber ball... Seems I remember a lot of stories of Yang Chen fu disciples doing that and doing that to their students.

People see the current practioner in this style, see that they went the cultural ambassadorship way and think the style is watered down. Was it...? Is it...? I don't know... but I do know some very effective martial arts like Judo was streamlined from jujitsu (only the high percentage applications taken) Seeing how the other two taijiquan styles (Hao stemming from Yang lu Chan himself and the other i.e. Wu style from his son, both mimic Chen Fu's style. I wouldn't sell Chen Fu's style short by any means

Even in our long form we are told Yang Cheng Fu took out double jump kick so the form could be practiced slowly and at a uniform pace.
Question ... "When is the last time you pulled off a double kick in a li tai, san shou, Sanda match? Myself, 30 years of sparring... off the top of my head, maybe once. Maybe Chen fu never meant it to be there. Chen fu obviously was a master of pugilistic ergonomics and kinesics, had decades of Martial arts experience, was taught by his Uncle family.. being a descendent of Yang Lu Chan (probably in his youth had to put up his dukes more than once)

I'd be looking at the form like this : "what is in there ... is in there for a reason" I wouldn't be searching for something that has been taken out...
Maybe the single kick is there because it set's up a transition into a high % application (and the single kick is the catalyst) thinking there is supposed to be a double kick there... you might miss what the Quan is teaching at that juncture ...

Do you change speeds in kicks, spins or otherwise within a single form? If it's it like any other form (and you have grasp the "why's" ) there has to be movement .. either internal or external movement... One or the other... only way I know to internalize it (if someone knows another way I'm all ears)

Kong Bao Long wrote:"When is the last time you pulled off a double kick in a li tai, san shou, Sanda match? Myself, 30 years of sparring... off the top of my head, maybe once.

I use double jump kicks footwork in sparring all the time. It's the fastest footwork that I can move in and close the distance. Instead of jumping high, I jump forward.

Two of my Wu style teachers did a yang style form
It was either from Ban Hao or Shao Hao
It had the jumping double kick amoung other things I haven’t seen elsewhere
So it was certainally there

charles wrote:It seems to me that one ought to identify what one wants from their practice or training. What one practices - and how one practices it - ought to be a reflection of that.

That raises the obvious question of why is much of Taijiquan forms practice performed slowly? What is the reason for practicing slowly: what skills or abilities comes from that practice?...

Ultimately, figure out what you want from your training and make the training your own to achieve that, rather than following dogma or standardized platitudes of it being this way or that.

I was taught you practice
Slow to develop precision
Relaxed to develop speed
Smooth (uniform speed) to develop continuity

There were probably some other that are not coming to mind.

johnwang wrote:

dragonprawn wrote:Do you change speeds in kicks, spins or otherwise within a single form?

Form is used to record information. It's used for teaching and learning. It's not used for training. You take information out of your form and make it into a drill. you can train your drill in any speed that you may like. In the beginning training stage, you may want to use slow speed to develop your 6 harmonies. After you have passed that stage, you should train for combat speed. Old XingYi saying said, "Any technique that take more than 1/2 second is bad technique.

The form is gong. Do with it what you will. If we're doing Taijiquan then the form is teaching us how to move energy continuously between different postures.

Regarding the greater discussion, constant speed, slowness, changing speeds, etc. Chen Wei-Ming asked Yang Cheng Fu.

T'ai Chi Ch'uan Ta Wen wrote:Q. When Taichi is practiced it should be slow but when it is demonstrated it is so slow that it often bores onlookers. It is not "flashy" like external schools. How can it be made more interesting?
A. The spirit of Taichi is gathered internally. Those who know this can appreciate it, but it is not good for demonstrations. Taichi is for the cultivation of one's self, not for applause. But because Taichi is for health and longevity and we want to promote it, when we demonstrate we must not be too slow. The old-timers would do the form at different speeds and would use moving push-hands with turns and so on in order to interest and stimulate the audience.

Thanks again everyone. It all makes me think and/or brings back memories.

In 2000 my school had to move into new digs. We did a 3 hour long variety show in a theater to raise money. Luckily my teacher's brother's Northern Praying Mantis school did half the demos. They have great visual stuff, a variety of weapons, and are highly entertaining. We thought the tai chi would be boring to the audience. One of our many musically talented students wrote a "wu wei tao" piece to accompany it. We also dressed up our push hands demo by, yes, turning and pushing each other into the next partner in a big circle. And the many musical performances in between demos helped.

My teacher was on a cable TV show in the old days. After an interview he performed long form and gradually moved faster and faster (Where is my VHS tape?). It was cool AF.

Yeah, the double jump kick was there all right. I even knew where, but forgot (note to self to ask my teacher). It might have left long form even prior to the 1920 edit. However, I was not at all knocking the big man for removing it (though toward the end it might have been a bit of self-interest).

John Wang's use of it sounds similar to his "tree kicking". Would that be correct JW? And while I agree form is a diploma/memory/teaching system I disagree with the "not training" part. It becomes its own nei kung (try lower and slower three times) and is akin to shadowboxing when fast.

Executing kicks like separate foot (toe/instep kick) and especially heel kick slow and very slow is quite difficult. But it makes the fast ones so much better. Ask a non TCC MA to do their kicks slow and see what you get. Lotus is a bitch, that's why I was secretly seeking RSF permission to do mine fast unabashedly. And because it appears near the end of the form it can serve to make an impressive noise to wake up the audience.

The jumping double kick is just before Hit Tiger

I interpreted as a double jump kick
Northern Long Fist/TKD type applications i.e. kicking chest high (or higher) and before the foot hits the floor your kicking chest high (or higher) with the other.... ala Jumping scissor kicks etc

origami_itto wrote:The form is gong. Do with it what you will. If we're doing Taijiquan then the form is teaching us how to move energy continuously between different postures.

If you repeat

- single move such as brush knee,
- combo such as double pulling, single whip,

40 times nonstop, you are training Taiji too.

- A XY guy can repeat XY Beng Quan for 2 miles.
- A Taiji guy can repeat Taiji brush knee for 2 miles too

No you are only doing 9 of the 13

dragonprawn wrote:I disagree with the "not training" part.

The solo drill is for training.