Dai Xin Yi Quan and Xing Yi Quan (why the difference?)

[Buddy]

What do you mean by shoulder method? What I've learned is shoulder (blade) is for issuing, elbow is for changing, and wrist is for controlling. But the lower wai san he is the same.

[D_Glenn]

Mix, This is actually Song style but I think tuo is at 0:37 only at 0:47 it looks like a true shoulder strike?








Here's tuo and I don't really see the shoulder strike. Thoughts?



http://www.56.com/w51/play_album-aid-25 ... E4NTk.html



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[Dai Zhi Qiang]

So are you saying that the obvious shoulder techniques contained within Tuo are not shoulder training methods? Its a shoulder strike or a shoulder arm bar, its obvious in the form. Therefor its a shoulder training method.

I am not sure if you read my above post. I am talking about "independent" methods which train specifically the shoulder. Like I said before you can make what you want out of of the forms (that is cool), but that is not what I am talking about.

FWIW

Jon.

[Chanchu]

Thanks for the reply- that's close enough as far as the history. I was just wondering what the general time lines were- as for documentation chuan po's or any type of written historical record would be good, but as you said may be impossible to be specific or may be hidden.

As for shoulder strike hsing-i in hebei hsing-i snake could do it.

There are lot more I am sure.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Thanks for the reply- that's close enough as far as the history. I was just wondering what the general time lines were- as for documentation chuan po's or any type of written historical record would be good, but as you said may be impossible to be specific or may be hidden.

As for shoulder strike hsing-i in hebei hsing-i snake could do it.

There are lot more I am sure.

Funny enough you mention "she xing" as that is in my eye's a modified, "ru lin bang" or "enter the forest shoulder strike". In the Dai move I mentioned the moves comes up underneath your opponent uprooting him, it is in a upward strike.

Jon.

[Felipe Bidó]

Interesting that you mention Snake being a modified "Entering the forest". Our Sparrowhaw form has a second move called "Entering the Forest" after the standard Hebei move of the same name, which looks like a Snake strike, but hitting upwards. Jose and I were discussing that move yesterday.

I couldn't find that move in any other Hebei style, but as I suspected, Xue Dian has it. Here's an image:



Our version comes up with a fist. This is what it looks like, using two different pictures from Sun's Book.

[taijiren]

Funny enough you mention "she xing" as that is in my eye's a modified, "ru lin bang" or "enter the forest shoulder strike". In the Dai move I mentioned the moves comes up underneath your opponent uprooting him, it is in a upward strike.

In the Dai Siba (四把), yao ru lin bang (鷂入林膀) comes right before tiao ling (挑頂). To me, it's tiao ling that she xing came from. I've always been struck the the similarities of these two moves after I've done a few line drills of both.

[Felipe Bidó]

Snake IS a Tiao move. The difference lies in the wave motion you use in snake to penetrate.

[mixjourneyman]

Jon: gotcha.

D_Glenn: not everyone knows the shoulder in Tuo. Essentially the shoulder strike or arm bar shows up just before you drill up to set up the slice across.

[Felipe Bidó]

Besides, some people do Tuo in two ways: Tuo Xing with the shoulder, and as Baoguoshi (Wrapping posture), which uses less shoulder, more forearm action, and the direction is straight

[mixjourneyman]

Besides, some people do Tuo in two ways: Tuo Xing with the shoulder, and as Baoguoshi (Wrapping posture), which uses less shoulder, more forearm action, and the direction is straight

I haven't seen the second variation. Is it like "flower hiding under the leaf" from baguazhang?

[Felipe Bidó]

Not at all. It looks similar to pulling a rope one hand at a time. I'll check the video of my XY nephew in the video section and see if he does it in the Wuxinglianhuan

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Funny enough you mention "she xing" as that is in my eye's a modified, "ru lin bang" or "enter the forest shoulder strike". In the Dai move I mentioned the moves comes up underneath your opponent uprooting him, it is in a upward strike.

In the Dai Siba (四把), yao ru lin bang (鷂入林膀) comes right before tiao ling (挑頂). To me, it's tiao ling that she xing came from. I've always been struck the the similarities of these two moves after I've done a few line drills of both.

Why I mentioned"ru lin bang" is due to the exact same move as in hugging your left hip with your right palm and then expanding. In the Xing Yi Quan move you actually are striking with the forearm/hand, but in the Dai Xin Yi Quan the move is with the shoulder.

Tiao Ling is also similar in this regard as you are also hugging the hip before you expand, the difference lies in the "inserting' (cha).

Jon.

[edededed]

I will only say that for me, comparing the various xinyi/xingyi styles makes a lot more sense if you do it incrementally - i.e. xinyiliuhequan, Dai family xinyiquan, Che style xingyiquan, older styles of Hebei xingyiquan, younger styles of Hebei xingyiquan. (Not sure where Song style fits in here.) There is actually quite a lot of similarity - very interesting stuff. Of course, for comparison purposes, it is better to have older, "purer" versions of the above styles (no combination styles, variant styles).

[I-mon]

In the Xing Yi Quan move you actually are striking with the forearm/hand, but in the Dai Xin Yi Quan the move is with the shoulder.

i'm not sure why you think this or maybe i'm misunderstanding, but having an extended arm doesn't necessarily mean that you are striking with the hand, rather than striking or throwing with any part of the body along the line of force...thus in xingyi every time the arms or body move there is a shoulder method being trained. so then when you look at pi, zuan, beng, pao and hengquan they all have very clear shoulder methods.

i see i'm getting into what you said not to, developing interpretations from the non-shoulder-specific forms. but i think you're incorrect when you say that in snake, or any other shape, that "you actually are striking with the forearm/hand".

i think it's extremely cool what you say about dai being separated into shenfa bufa and bangfa. i've started threads in the past asking about shoulders and headbutts in xingyi!

jon do you ever practice any hebei xingyi anymore? maybe with the switch to dai you've discovered a bunch of new stuff in your body, but if you went back to the hebei forms you might find that actually that stuff was in there all along, only expressed differently.