XingYi Dragon

[GrahamB]

sun lu tang's son is doing "long hu xiang jiao", dragon tiger come out together. or as I thought the first time I heard the name, dragon tiger banana.

It's easy to tell you live in San Francisco Fong!

[wayne hansen]

in our tang shou tao school we would finnish each session going up and down the hall doing dragon to the point of exhustion.
great way to finnish a hard 2 hour session.

[Batesy]

I train the full squatting version with a leap now and again as a conditioning method for leg strength and flexibility. I like the coiling, cross=body split/rip. I am not a kicker but will train it with a stomp.

[Pandrews1982]

while the conversation so far has had a few points of interest for the most part I've found it to be quite dry and based on technique or method rather than what it is people look for in training the dragon xing. What is it that you think defines dragon and how does it fit in with your understanding of xing yi/xin yi?

The interesting thing i noticed so far is that in the post about dai xin yi's dragon the posture and way the body physically manifests was focused upon, however to me that's just how a certain group of people have interpreted the principles/philosophy of the dragon xing. Does xing yi and xin yi have the same understanding of what dragon embodies as a core philosophy/stratefgy and is it just the manner in which that is expressed which is different? I believe that the core of all the xin(g)yi branches still hold the same principles and therefore they are all the same art albeit applied in slightly different ways. If I were John Wang I'd be able to add a sexual metaphore here but i'm not and wont.

Anyway after rambling on my main query is - what is it you believe dragon to embody and how do you try to find and train this?

[Josealb]

It coils and uncoils the upper body from the lower, as it rises and falls. The limbs help in the twist, and also express the technique part of it, but the main training is in the kua and torso/spine. It trains a very wavy/snake quality in the back, since it also bends it a bit upwards, while you go down, while keeping it straight, at the same time it twists it horizontally.

The body folds, basically. I like how Hu Xing unfolds the back, as an opposite. These two work great together, doing lines of both back to back is a hell of a workout.

[middleway]

It coils and uncoils the upper body from the lower, as it rises and falls. The limbs help in the twist, and also express the technique part of it, but the main training is in the kua and torso/spine. It trains a very wavy/snake quality in the back, since it also bends it a bit upwards, while you go down, while keeping it straight, at the same time it twists it horizontally.

The body folds, basically. I like how Hu Xing unfolds the back, as an opposite. These two work great together, doing lines of both back to back is a hell of a workout.

+1

[Pandrews1982]

Well...not quite what i was looking for. I don't disagree with Jose's post but it doesn't go deep enough for me.

Coiling and uncoiling are still to me ideas about body movement rather than strategy, they can be part of a strategy but not the strategy itself. So far everything being said is mainly about movement, and/or embodiment of movement which an animal may use. To explain, coiling and uncoiling are not exclusive to dragon, they don't make your movement "dragon" just because you can do a movement with a coil or uncoil, all of the animals use coiling and uncoiling in some way and to some extent. I can stand up and twist producing a coiling action in my spine but am i "doing dragon"?

If I think i'm doing dragon am I "really" doing dragon?

Is this guy doing dragon or just movements commonly associated with dragon? See what i'm aiming at?



(BTW that video is just to show a point i have no opinion in terms of quality and i don't knwo the guy in the video. Personally I don't think he's embodying the dragon xing he's just doing movements and postures, but doing exercises like that is something i also do myself to practice body movements and familiarise myself with techniques and so on)

Why do you need to coil for your method to be dragon? I mean why do dragon at all, a guy throws a punch and you coil to one side of the strike and kick him or strike him, why? What makes it more approriate than say slipping straight past, or using tiger, or snake instead. And if you do slip past why isn't slipping straight past dragon? or is it dragon if you slip straight past in a dragon like way?

So what strategy does the animal use, what is the essence of the animal?

What makes your coiling and uncoiling dragon and not snake?

When applying dragon what are you looking to achieve?

For example (and very simply because you could write a whole book on animal behaviour when discussing these things) - snake looks to achieve a hold and bind of the opponent from there it can strike or immobilise. Tiger looks to close distance quickly and land heavy strikes to cause damage/disruption in order to gain a position form which it can throw/choke or provide a clean finishing blow. What technique or movement these animal strategies are using to deliver their unique strategy is in some way irrelevant, the movement is used because it is appropriate to the strategy not because the movement determines the strategy.

Also if you determine the strategy then are you actually applying your own strategy and not really applying the animal strategy but something else?

Some movements are better suited to certain strategies and get associated with them, they are like the "set pieces" or "exemplars" of the animal, but by themselves they are just movements, one movement may be more "dragon" than another but its not dragon until you are able to apply it in a dragon like fashion.

Slightly abstract example - A hyena is more like a wolf than a chihuahua. All three walk on four legs, wag their tail and bark. But a hyena is not a wolf and a chihuahua is definately not a wolf. Only a wolf is a wolf. What makes a wolf a wolf and what makes dragon xing, dragon xing?

IMO dragon is the hardest of all the animals to understand in terms of strategy, I don't profess to understand it, it frustrates me a lot, there are other animals which i find much easier to relate to.

[Wanderingdragon]

If you look at the torsion among the joints, you will recognize a truly serpentine mobility and line of power. Is it necessary to understand the animal or the animal strategy? To understand the animal is to know it's strengths and weaknesses, to understand it's strategy is simply to protect it's weaknesses and exploit it's strengths. A dragon is a serpant, simply, this is a creature we know, the myth of the crreature is a human creation, so the great wisdom and enormous strength is the mind of man, your strategy is always in knowing your opponent.

[Josealb]

Paul,

I know how important understanding the xing is in your line of xingyi. I also remember that for you guys xing is closely related to yi, if not the same thing. That being said, and being the dragon a mythical animal, i cant begin to guess how you guys view this, or what specific detail you are asking. I thought you asked for how dragon trains the body, but then you referenced technique and intent...

The ability to be able to twist, turn, coil and expand the torso, while making big changes from high to low all of a sudden can be used however you like. Add limbs for pulling, grabbing, stomping, scraping, kicking or pushing, and you have yourself something usable. Make no mistake on this, a dragon is a snake. Able to fold its bones and contract and expand at will, but theres a reason why they say "dragon body" and not "snake body" in xingyi. Why is that?

[GrahamB]

l, i cant begin to guess how you guys view this, or what specific detail you are asking

Yeah you got that bit right, at least..... Hahahahahah

[Josealb]

Considering you thought that the rising part of dragon was the same move as Sun's (and all other xingyiquan lines) Dragon and Tiger go together, from Za Shi Chui....i would say yes...i cant even begin to guess.

Maybe i lack imagination.

[GrahamB]

I have decided to answer you through the medium of video. You know whereto look. The message is for all of us.

[Josealb]

I have decided to answer you through the medium of video. You know whereto look. The message is for all of us.

Dude, dont be so cryptic...it took me a while to find it.

You mean this one?



Thanks for it. Glad to see you training hard, keep it up.

[GrahamB]

The 3rd person you meet tomorrow will give you a message. That's from me too - you'll know what to do.

[Pandrews1982]

jose I'm gonna send you a pm it'll be easier (and less contraversial)