Lian quan bu lian gong... what does it mean to you?

[yusuf]

I find it easier than all of this conjecture. If beautiful forms are all you want then train Hatha Yoga. People like Ken Delves can still rumble, even in their 70's. I am still trying to working on the gong to understand how to get there though.

[johnwang]

What's the worse nightmare that could happen to all CMA guys? When you are 80 years old, a 20 years old throws one punch and knock you down. How do you prevent that from happened?

- Push him away? He will come back.
- Throw him down? He will get back up.
- Use your Sung? You Sung can't kill him.
- Be reason with him? He just want to beat you up.

The only solution is to "maintain your Gong", and hope you can knock the shit out of him before he does it to you.

[GrahamB]

On the other hand, at the risk of making a bad pun, I have had a belly-full of those who I have met over the years who pontificate about Chinese theory to the point where it becomes faith-healing as much or more than a martial art.

Me too. Seems to me people prefer the fantasy to the mundane reality.

Emperor Wu of Liang asked the great master Bodhidharma, “What is the highest meaning of the holy truths?”

Bodhidharma said, “Empty, without holiness.”

Or... From the withered tree, a flower blooms.

[JonathanArthur]

Gong I think refers to accumulated skill or ability. The phrase yi chang kong can be translated as futile or futility. Dao lao I would translate as until you're old. You can practice MA all your life, but without continued daily practice to develop skills and abilities, they simply will not be there. So I think the phrase could emphasise consistency in training rather than a particular method of practice.

[johnwang]

Skill is something that you learn in school. Ability (Gong) is something that you develop at home. The skill is the 1st 50%. and the Gong is the 2nd 50%. There are mutual exclusive IMO. Punching at your opponent is skill training. Punching on a heavy bag is Gong training.

[D_Glenn]

Re: D. Glenn's comment on my post

With all due respect to your right to have an opinion [and I felt the same way for many years when I first started training in both taiji and later bagua]... you're talking pseudo-oriental nonsense when it comes to martial arts training that involves een a modest degree of contact.

Even good training may wear you out, whether or not you are careful or well-supervised in your early years. Injuries, your genes and bad luck also can take their toll.

Believe what you want and I wish you all the best with your training but don't preach till you hit my age and have had 35 years of training and injuries from that training under your belt.

My teacher is 55 years old, healthier than most 18 year-olds, still has an open challenge to anyone and accepts any manner of fight in Beijing, he also travels around the world staying months at a time away from his home to teach Bagua. My grandteacher had lived to be 83 and was one of the strongest men I've ever known. There is something to this "pseudo-oriental nonsense".


Again, just my 2 cents.


In the future though just simply tell me to 'fuck off' instead of insulting me for simply trying to help you out a bit.


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[Chris Fleming]

"what does it mean to you?"

Lift weights. Train hard.

[Michael Babin]

Dear D. Glenn
That's where you and I appear to differ... I wouldn't dream of telling someone who I don't know and have never met to "fuck off" just because they offer patronizing advice.

[C.J.Wang]

I am 27 and my Bagua teacher is 59. He still hits (much) harder, moves faster, and squats lower than I do. Whenever we train together, I am always the one who gets out of breath first and has to call it quits.

A few years ago when he became the oldest M.A. student in the exercise physiology department at his school, he actually outperformed most of his classmates, who are in their 20s and early 30s, on a routine fitness test.

And since the topic of his M.A. thesis was on the use of structure in Bagua application, the professor asked him to demonstrate the idea in front of the whole class on a 25 years old Sanda champion who'd been accepted to the school on a merit scholarship. The guy attacked with boxing-style punches which bounced right off my teacher's arms. The professor, who found it hard to believe, thought the young man was holding back and kept asking him to hit harder and faster -- each time with the same result. At one point the guy's fist actually bounced backward and hit his own face. Eventually he begged off and refused to continue. (I wasn't present at the event, but heard the story from the professor himself.)

So I can say for certain that I am not a blind believer in health/fighting skill maintainence aspect of CIMA because the evidence is right in front of me.

[D_Glenn]

Patronizing?

I think my advice is pretty cut and dry and applicable to many members of the forum.

Most everyone is taught and aware of how to focus their 'yi' on 'qihai point' (dantian), I'm only trying to point out that at some point it is important to shift focus to the 'mingmen point'. In terms of having energy into old age, this is a key aspect of practice.


If anyone thinks this is nonsense, then I don't know what to say.


What makes no sense though, is that me merely mentioning this is distorted into having no fighting/martial skills ?



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[AllanF]

If you don't understand and practice gong then everything is for nothing!

Of course it depends on what "gong" is to your system!

[johnwang]

The guy attacked with boxing-style punches which bounced right off my teacher's arms.

Taiji call this Peng. Since some people may think Peng Jin only exists in the arm, I prefer to call it "body unification + body vibration". If you have "body unification + body vibration", it will be very easy for you to run your opponent down by bouncing (different from pushing) him away. IMO, this one principle can solve all problems which is the highest level of the CMA training. The only missing part is, you still have to finish it (the definition of "finish" is either your opponent is dead or unconscious).

MMA guys apply this principle all the time. The only difference is they may run themselves down with their opponent. IMO, it's much harder to run your opponent down while remain standing and mobility.

[taiwandeutscher]

Lian quan bu lian gong... what does it mean to you?

Jibengong, and I'm 51, trained 27 years, 17 here in Taiwan.
Damn', was it hot and humid this morning!

[Chris Fleming]

I am 27 and my Bagua teacher is 59. He still hits (much) harder, moves faster, and squats lower than I do. Whenever we train together, I am always the one who gets out of breath first and has to call it quits.

A few years ago when he became the oldest M.A. student in the exercise physiology department at his school, he actually outperformed most of his classmates, who are in their 20s and early 30s, on a routine fitness test.

And since the topic of his M.A. thesis was on the use of structure in Bagua application, the professor asked him to demonstrate the idea in front of the whole class on a 25 years old Sanda champion who'd been accepted to the school on a merit scholarship. The guy attacked with boxing-style punches which bounced right off my teacher's arms. The professor, who found it hard to believe, thought the young man was holding back and kept asking him to hit harder and faster -- each time with the same result. At one point the guy's fist actually bounced backward and hit his own face. Eventually he begged off and refused to continue. (I wasn't present at the event, but heard the story from the professor himself.)

So I can say for certain that I am not a blind believer in health/fighting skill maintainence aspect of CIMA because the evidence is right in front of me.

I think it was master Zhao Zeren who had a similar experience. He was somewhat egged on by an official to do an exchange with a young san da champion. He said "we can do some push hands". The young buck said "I don't push, I hit". So he came at him and was thrown. Got up and came at the master again and was thrown into a table with food and whatever crashing everywhere. He called it quits. The politician/official or whoever said something like "it was funny, you looked like you were going to be hit and then at the last moment you threw him".

[D_Glenn]

The simple explanation for this is, you can train your solo form all your life, you still won't be able to develop your "twisting Jin" if you don't go through this equipment training.

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

if you train solo form all your life, you may be able to handle average Joe on the street. In order to handle the best of the best, you will need to use equipment training to help you to move into "higher level".

When we get old, we may lose our endurance, speed, flexibility, and balance. The only thing that we may still have left is our "strength". It will be with you until the day that you die. If you can use your hand to crack nuts, you will still be able to do that when you are 80 years old.

I truly don't know how can Qi has anything to do with this kind of "Gong - ability" development.


What's the worse nightmare that could happen to all CMA guys? When you are 80 years old, a 20 years old throws one punch and knock you down. How do you prevent that from happened?

- Push him away? He will come back.
- Throw him down? He will get back up.
- Use your Sung? You Sung can't kill him.
- Be reason with him? He just want to beat you up.

The only solution is to "maintain your Gong", and hope you can knock the shit out of him before he does it to you.

Besides the fact that without 'Qi' you would be dead.

There comes a point where everyone will no longer have the physical ability to train their 'gong'. They can only preserve their tendon strength.

And they have no real ability to cultivate 精 'Jing' and 氣 'Qi'. (They need to do that throughout their life alongside the 'gong' training.) They can only try to conserve it at this point.

But if they did train correctly (Quan + Gong + Qi) then the practices can focus on the 神 'shen' aspect of the martial art.



I've met quite a few of the bigger name people in the CIMA world, including you John, and I don't know if you are joking or not but only speaking of the feeling or maybe the constitution of everyone's body I do have to say that it did feel that you don't train with any regard to 'qi'. Your body seems like an old hardened tree, while everyone else has a ton of flesh surrounding the bones and they have a feeling of a young springy sapling. Chen Xiao Wang is at least 65 or older and he's as healthy as any 20 year old.

I think you have amazing knowledge of, and skills in Shuai Jiao but it makes me sad to think that you aren't a bit more concerned with your internal health.

Do you believe in acupuncture?





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