Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

[Bao]

So, when it comes to the movements of peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, and kao being associated with the 8 trigrams, the emphasis on training those, may have come after the popularization of Sun's way of describing them. Yang derived stylists may (and seem to) have followed up, by creating a distinct ji energy, form movement, and push hands routine to solidify the new way of practice, supposedly in accord with the 8 trigrams paradigm, but this was something that may not have ever been practiced by Chen stylists.

Well, as we know, Yang LuChan learned other arts and had other teachers before and after learning Chen Family Boxing. So it could be that Yang Lu Chan learned real and more internal tai chi from somewhere else and got the terminology from somewhere else. Chen style might allready be mixed up too much with Shaolin and village wrestling. I am not saying that this is the truth, but it's just as much possible as your proposal.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Well, as we know, Yang LuChan learned other arts and had other teachers before and after learning Chen Family Boxing. So it could be that Yang Lu Chan learned real and more internal tai chi from somewhere else and got the terminology from somewhere else. Chen style might allready be mixed up too much with Shaolin and village wrestling. I am not saying that this is the truth, but it's just as much possible as your proposal.
SNIP

Bao, c'mon. It may be "possible" - but is neither likely nor probable.

Let's face it:
- If what Yang already had was so good, why would he have been so impressed the first time he saw a Chen family member in action (in a brawl at a pharmacy)?
- Moreover, whey would he then go to the (immense) trouble to travel to a nondescript village in central Henan?
- Moreover again: Why would he, once there, go to enormous trouble to learn a martial art taught by conservative and parochial teachers?
- Moreover yet again: If what he learned from the Chens was not the bulk (or, indeed, the entirety) of the martial art he took to Beijing and won fame with, why on earth would he credit the Chens with it?
- Finally, bear in mind that Yang credited the Chens with his art half a century before any Chen clan members were teaching in Beijing, so it was not as if there were any bragging rights in asserting a connection to Chenjiagou, a backward peasant village in a poor and backward province that was hardly likely to impress the Beijing sophisticates.

Yang COULD have claimed to have learned his martial arts from a mysterious Taoist hermit in a cave on Mt Wudang...but he didn't.

Nobody is saying that Yang style and Chen style are the same. For me, at least, this thread is interesting in that it may lead us to some conclusions about what Yang learned, what he changed or added, and why he changed or added to the material learned in Chenjiagou.

But let us not rewrite history based on mere supposition and/or wishful thinking, please.

[Ralteria]

Let's face it:
- If what Yang already had was so good, why would he have been so impressed the first time he saw a Chen family member in action (in a brawl at a pharmacy)?
- Moreover, whey would he then go to the (immense) trouble to travel to a nondescript village in central Henan?

In most accounts noted for historical accuracy, Luchan was a bond servant sold to a Chen clan member (Dehu/Tehu) who owned a pharmacy in Yongnian. When returning to Chen village he brought is bond servant with him.

- Moreover again: Why would he, once there, go to enormous trouble to learn a martial art taught by conservative and parochial teachers?

Chen Dehu (being a rich landlord) could afford to hire Chen Changxing to teach his kids. Yang Luchan, being a servant, was expected to make tea and wait on Changxing hand and foot. Luchan was witness to all of Changxing's lessons and was often used as his training dummy,thus having lots of hands on experience with feel.

- Moreover yet again: If what he learned from the Chens was not the bulk (or, indeed, the entirety) of the martial art he took to Beijing and won fame with, why on earth would he credit the Chens with it?


- Finally, bear in mind that Yang credited the Chens with his art half a century before any Chen clan members were teaching in Beijing, so it was not as if there were any bragging rights in asserting a connection to Chenjiagou, a backward peasant village in a poor and backward province that was hardly likely to impress the Beijing sophisticates.

Yang COULD have claimed to have learned his martial arts from a mysterious Taoist hermit in a cave on Mt Wudang...but he didn't.

I'd argue that it is the bulk of it, or at least the frame work. I understand the forms are "different". But really they function under the same sequence of moves, performed and parsed differently. So if the form sets that Luchan and his subsequent heirs altered and showed publicly he got from the Chen's, why wouldn't he credit them?

It lends ACTUAL credibility but also protects his arse from anything he and the Wu's (yeah I said it) added in or changed based on personal preference, previous learning, and anything else they came across. The majority of all Taijiquan literature at the time was attributed to Wu's writing or "finding" anyway.


Nobody is saying that Yang style and Chen style are the same. For me, at least, this thread is interesting in that it may lead us to some conclusions about what Yang learned, what he changed or added, and why he changed or added to the material learned in Chenjiagou.

Isn't Sal Canzonieri writing a book on CMA history? I know he has mentioned some of this before, with Shaolin Hong Quan and Zen Rou Quan being possible additions to the Taiji repotoire in addition to Chen Family boxing (from what I remember). Visually, Zen Rou Quan fits the bill particularly nicely, and I probably strategy wise as well.

OOohh, found the post - http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13267&p=229108&hilit=taizu#p229108

[Doc Stier]

Let's face it:
- If what Yang already had was so good, why would he have been so impressed the first time he saw a Chen family member in action (in a brawl at a pharmacy)?
- Moreover, whey would he then go to the (immense) trouble to travel to a nondescript village in central Henan?
- Moreover again: Why would he, once there, go to enormous trouble to learn a martial art taught by conservative and parochial teachers?
- Moreover yet again: If what he learned from the Chens was not the bulk (or, indeed, the entirety) of the martial art he took to Beijing and won fame with, why on earth would he credit the Chens with it?
- Finally, bear in mind that Yang credited the Chens with his art half a century before any Chen clan members were teaching in Beijing, so it was not as if there were any bragging rights in asserting a connection to Chenjiagou, a backward peasant village in a poor and backward province that was hardly likely to impress the Beijing sophisticates.

Yang COULD have claimed to have learned his martial arts from a mysterious Taoist hermit in a cave on Mt Wudang...but he didn't.

Nobody is saying that Yang style and Chen style are the same. For me, at least, this thread is interesting in that it may lead us to some conclusions about what Yang learned, what he changed or added, and why he changed or added to the material learned in Chenjiagou.

But let us not rewrite history based on mere supposition and/or wishful thinking, please.

Good points, Andy. Also. it is quite likely that Yang Lu-Chan was the best exponent of Chen Chia Chuan in his generation of practitioners, witnessed by the fact that other practitioners of his era were either reluctant to challenge him or were unable to defeat him. Thus, the nickname...Yang the Unsurpassed!

Yang essentially admitted in so many words that he owed most of his internal development and fighting skills to his training in the Chen Family Style, as did his sons, Yang Pan-Hou and Yang Chien-Hou. This is what they initially learned from their father, along with their family style later on. There is good reason to believe that the older members of the third generation of the Yang family, particularly Yang Shao-Hou, also learned Chen Style as a part of their formal martial education, in addition to the early Yang Family Style. These four men are considered by many Chinese martial historians to be among the best Chinese boxers of any style ever to date. Hence, their enduring reputation as fighters and the subsequent desire of so many people to learn their training methods.

Additionally, I can clearly see signature elements of the Old Frame Chen Style in the earliest Yang Style form sets. The older Yang Style Large Frame and Medium Frame sets include many of the same sequential arrangements of postures with the same names, as well as certain similar stylistic expressions of same, and the same concepts and principles throughout, but with a modified stylistic interpretation of movement overall over time. In my opinion, these aspects of training are a testimonial to the source of material incorporated in developing the Old Yang Style, and would not have been included that process if they were considered irrelevant or of no value to martial development and application.

[Bao]

Let's face it: - If what Yang already had was so good, why would he have been so impressed the first time he saw a Chen family member in action (in a brawl at a pharmacy)?

According to the classical Tai Chi sources,Taijiquan Dao Jian Gan Sanshou He Bian, the author Gong Chen states that YLC had practiced quite a few martial arts before he practiced with the Chen family. His specialty should have been Sanshier lu Changquan. To be fair, if he hadn't had good martial skills, is he likely to have understood how good the Chen mebers were? And let's face it, this is probably the reason why the Chen family found him good and accepted him. And this is also probably the answer to why he could easily understand what the Chen members did when he watched them in secret. It's quite logical and reasonable if you ask me.

- Moreover yet again: If what he learned from the Chens was not the bulk (or, indeed, the entirety) of the martial art he took to Beijing and won fame with, why on earth would he credit the Chens with it?
- Finally, bear in mind that Yang credited the Chens with his art half a century before any Chen clan members were teaching in Beijing, so it was not as if there were any bragging rights in asserting a connection to Chenjiagou, a backward peasant village in a poor and backward province that was hardly likely to impress the Beijing sophisticates.

He respected his teachers, all credit for him.

Yang COULD have claimed to have learned his martial arts from a mysterious Taoist hermit in a cave on Mt Wudang...but he didn't.

No he probably didn't, but again, good sources says that he had a good martial arts backgrounbd and he probably didn't want to stop learning. Why should he?

But let us not rewrite history based on mere supposition and/or wishful thinking, please.

I didn't invenmt those ideas. There are plenty of people that do not believe that Chen tai chi is not the original Tai Chi, (at least not how it is presented and practice today,) and that they didn't invent it. But I know that the Chen's history is the offical tai chi history nowadays, so I won't claim anything else to be correct.

But then again. It was Wu Yuxiang who started using the name, mostly for his teacher Yang Luchan's art. So we might say that "Tai Chi" starts with the Yang style or with the Wu style. It doesn't matter where it starts, earlier or later, and it won't take away anything from the great things that the Chen family achieved.

Isn't Sal Canzonieri writing a book on CMA history? I know he has mentioned some of this before, with Shaolin Hong Quan and Zen Rou Quan being possible additions to the Taiji repotoire in addition to Chen Family boxing (from what I remember). Visually, Zen Rou Quan fits the bill particularly nicely, and I probably strategy wise as well.
OOohh, found the post - http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13267&p=229108&hilit=taizu#p229108

He should have known quite a few styles according to various sources. Probably he knew some qigong sets or similar exercises as well, commonly practiced by martial artists that time.

So it isn't that strange that Yang Luchan took his Tai Chi in another direction. Also, it's not strange that he had a public variation of his art and forms, and another method for "indoor" practice. I do also think that he showed his teachers much respect when he changed so much for more public teaching and kept much indoors.
...It might have hurt "Tai Chi" in the long run, but then again, if you want to see the principles or instead stick to outer shapes and style differencies is your own choice.

[extrajoseph]

I don't think YLC would have chnaged that much in one generation, but his grandson YCF did, but only in stylistic preferences (e.g. more soft with a larger frame on the exteranl movements and less obvious in the internal qi circulation, without much visible silk-reeling), though not in the Taiji essence, and one can see this approach and sutle progression as he got older and better in his two sets of photos doing the form when he was younger and when he was older.

[Andy_S]

Ralteria:

Thanks for the info, that is more detail that I have heard from other versions. Can I ask your sources for historical writings on the early Yangs?

Doc:

Are there any versions of your Yang large, small and medium frames up on social media? Would be interesting to compare and contrast to Chen. And as regards modern Chen (which you learned from Master Cheng in Houston, IIRC...?) what did it add to, or how did it compliment, your existing Yang Taiji knowledge or skills? (If at all...)

I am not contending that Yang was not the most famous fighter on his time and place, probably surpassing the Chens themselves at their chosen art. I am not sure how many of today's Yangs are as solid as today's Chens, though...
Bao:

I would not say the Chens "invented" Taiji - they synthesized a range of arts and elements and they certainly taught the man who is responsible, more than anyone else, for Taiji's fame and popularity. (ie Yang LC) That must count for something.

The only people who deny this have, IMHO, an agenda. (I have huge respect for the Cheng Tin-hung and Dan Docherty substyle of Taiji, but his lineage has consistently dissed modern Chen style without, IMHO, presenting any real evidence for their contentions - one of which is Chen Chanxing taught all the Chen villagers a basic Shaolin boxing, and only Yang got the "real" stuff. This strikes me as ridiculous, particularly as it is presented without any empirical evidence.)

As for the name: Sure, the Chens did not name their art "Taijiquan" though they later adopted the popular brand, and the most famous writings on Taiji come from the Wus. But I am more interested in the actual product than the brand or the manuals...

[Andy_S]

SNIP
I don't think YLC would have chnaged that much in one generation, but his grandson YCF did,
SNIP

I tend to agree with you on the first generation probably not making radical adjustments, but as is the course of things, mutations do appear the further one goes down the line. For eg in Chen style, the 'four Buddha warriors attendents' all do their forms just a little bit differently although they all studied under the same guys in the same time and place. Two or three generations of their students may well do it very differently, not just for reasons of personal preference, but as they add material and influences from other sources to their own practice.

There again: If you look at Yang Cheng-fu's public form, the postures and the sequence of the moves almost directly reflect modern Chen style. So I would suggest that what Yang CF changed was not the essence, but the manner of practice and (perhaps) the auxiliary training methods.

[windwalker]

(As for the name: Sure, the Chens did not name their art "Taijiquan" though they later adopted the popular brand, and the most famous writings on Taiji come from the Wus. But I am more interested in the actual product than the brand or the manuals..)

the product is not the brand? its like saying all cola soft drinks are the same as coca-cola no matter what brand its from
the cola people even tried to introduce a new coke a while back,,,didnt work,,,people where to used to what for them is coca-cola
the same for taiji.

YLC methods and movements had to have been / must have been quite different when compared to the base styles he worked with (chen) among others....family styles go through great pains to insure that their products are in line with their core teachings...its intresting that here, when I asked about the differences between styles,,,most of the time what was said was that the chen style cannot do some of the same things that the other taiji styles are noted for.....differnt ideas at work,,,it was not said as in one is better then the other, only that they do seem to be different, and end up with different results / outlooks/ ..confusing if one is not to clear on what their idea of taiji is....

.

[Doc Stier]

Doc:
Are there any versions of your Yang large, small and medium frames up on social media? Would be interesting to compare and contrast to Chen. And as regards modern Chen (which you learned from Master Cheng in Houston, IIRC...?) what did it add to, or how did it compliment, your existing Yang Taiji knowledge or skills? (If at all...)

Andy:

To the best of my knowledge, by special request from our system founder, nobody in the Shen Men Tao lineage has posted any videos of the Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan material via social media, and it isn't likely that anyone will do so in the near future.

My personal experience in learning and practicing several Chen Style form sets, the Old Frame form set in particular, revealed the obvious influence of the Chen Style in the creation of the early Yang Style form sets. The connection was clearly much greater than I ever realized prior to my introduction to the Chen methods.

As such, I believe that my experience in training the Chen forms has certainly been of benefit to my practice of the Yang forms through direct comparison of their respective stylistic variations in expressing shared movement themes, physical principles, philosophical concepts, and combat strategies. Well worth the effort to be sure.

[Ralteria]

Ralteria:

Thanks for the info, that is more detail that I have heard from other versions. Can I ask your sources for historical writings on the early Yangs?

Yeah, np. Douglas Wile's Tai-Chi Touchstones (Yang Family...). Douglas cites a Hsu Chen as the source of that information who did the footwork and wrote a book himself on the material. This was circa 1930's

The other is Lu Shengli's Combat techniques of Taiji, XingYi, and Bagua. Lu was a disciple of Wang Peisheng who conducted his own research in Yongnian with Lu in accompaniment. This was circa 1980's

Both site pretty much the same story.

As an addendum to all this and something worth mentioning is that in both accounts when Chen Dehu died, Luchan was the only person left in the household aside from Dehu's wife. She subsequently inherited him as a bond servant. As it was super akward to have a male servant and only one member of the household being female she would have sold him off. But more than likely due to his age(and probable loyalty) she burned his bond papers instead. This, at least to me, logically explains why Luchan would have spent 30 freaking years in Chen village before returning to Yongnian. 40 years old would have been well into maturity in the 1800's also, possibly even considered elderly.

To (seriously, lol) wrap all this around back to the main topic at hand, and to clarify what some have mentioned before: It's the principles and their execution that make it Taiji. Quite honestly, Er Lu, the Long Form, whatever you want to call it, however you perform it, is a vessel for the princples and shen fa. The shapes involved are basic enough to appear in human defensive reaction fairly regularly. It is painfully obvious to me that the first few generations of Yang's and Wu's realized this and thus were able to make it their own with whatever they felt was important to them.

It's been mentioned that Sun Lutang incorporated XingYi and Bagua shenfa methods into his Sun Taiji. I'd seriously argue that as being a natural progression. I don't see what the Yang family did as being any different than that, incorporating what they knew into their stuff. Because of that, unless you follow the progression that Luchan followed, learning all the MA that he learned, even down to the order in which he learned them, you'll never get Luchan's material. Or Banhou's, or Jianhou's, or Chen Chingping's or Chanxings, or anyone else's. By following the princples, embodying them, and incorporating what you know, you get your own Taiji. And why the hell would you want anything different.

Snake style, Tiger style, blah blah blah. There is no secret method, no hidden master form that will teach you anything you can't figure out by hard fucking work, testing the material, staying true to the principles, and staying honest with yourself. There is no magic wand(form/frame/whatever).

[taiwandeutscher]

More snakes, in the year of the snake!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewizIBnk ... e=youtu.be

[bailewen]

... 40 years old would have been well into maturity in the 1800's also, possibly even considered elderly.

As an aside, there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that 40 would be particularly more elderly then than now. Human longevity hasn't really increased that much over time. The reason that average life spans were so low just a couple hundred years ago is not because people got old and died quicker. It is because people seldom had the chance to get old and die at all. Most people died violently, from disease or never even made it to see their first birthday. So it's not that everybody was getting old by 40 or 50. It's that you had a LOT of young children dying in their first month (brings the average waaaay down) and then you had a hell of a lot of young men dying in war, bandit raids, random violence. And you have people dying from simple things like bacterial infections from what, today would be minor injuries. Lots of plague and famine bringing the average down too.

For example, let's say:

10 people
5 of them live to see 80 years old
2 of them die as children in their first month
3 more die at 20 years old from war or disease.

Average life span for this population of 10: roughly 46 and yet half the population lives to see their 80th birthday.

[extrajoseph]

If we look at the names for the Yang form there are 5 animals instead of 3: The monkey ("Repulse Monkey") and the horse ("Wild Horse Parts its Mane") as well as the Crane, the Tiger and the Snake and that would fit in better with the Taiji philosophy of Wuxing Bagua (five elements and 8 trigrams) to make up the 13 postures.

[extrajoseph]

So why just settle for Snake Taiji?