Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

[wayne hansen]

Huangs 7 point push is of great value in its original manner but not as it is taught now
The pushing part is as good as the yielding
I teach the 7 pushes as a solo punching drill
Jab cross uppercut bolo uppercut hook straight blast
If pain or at least feeling isn’t introduced at some point it will all fall apart when the tire touches the road
I use Chinna for just that reason
I can do Chinna so there is just control no pain but the pain is useful
It is also good to stretch the tendons and teach the path of energy development
I tell people they would never use it in combat though some have

[cloudz]

Hi George,

Thanks for the welcome. I certainly believe you’ve sat in more places than me, as have probably many here (I’m still under 40). I think you raise a great point about objectives, and the importance of having clarity/being honest with ourselves about our own.

I began taiji in 2001 after dabbling ina number of external arts. I was young, athletic, and interested in power (fighting skills etc) like just about any young male who starts training martial arts.

I was always vaguely interested in something that transcended mere fighting skills (hence taiji and not one of many martial arts more obviously suited for fighting), but did see martial skill as the ultimate litmus check and was not shy about experimenting and pressure testing.

As I slowly developed in my training I gradually moved to push hands as my litmus test not because it realistically simulates combat, but as a safer way to test the things I was looking for in potential teachers (i.e. to evaluate whether I wanted to study with someone and listen to what they were saying, or if I should not bother because they knew less than me).

My motivations have gradually changed over years of training, life experience, etc, and now my primary interest is on the internal development, which I think naturally leads to a very different emphasis and approach to training than those who more prioritize fighting skills.

nice, thank you for that

as you taking with one hand a giving with another, as well as being non specific in your disagreement was vague and left me guessing a little

it's all good, I really do know what you mean about the internal experience,
from my perspective; I'm just over 50, and want to have as much fun, physically speaking, while I can
life's too short!

there's nothing more fun, than rolling, wrestling and having a bit of a box or sanda or whatever really. pushing is fun too of course, moving fixed
developing skills, co-operatively. seeing how that force dynamics works. I like exploring soft skills as much as the next, tai chi guy.

I am and always will be 'a tai chi guy', so I've got your back.. regardless of what It might seem at times. and despite the pains it can sometimes give me lol

there's an interesting discussion to be had of the factions within our venerable style. I read a sweet little book about exactly that.
I have to start a thread on that book, actually. It makes perfect sense in many ways. It's perhaps down to the internal vs. external battle within; to some degree.

maybe we all have a different idea of what we find fun. I've had boxing sessions where afterwards i felt it was fun, but damn I really don't enjoy getting hit hard in the head for so long. maybe going hard with that should be selective let's say.

you need good people around to practice martial arts safely, and in a healthy progressive way.
going by your post - I think that is a point of agreement.

internal can mean a few different things of course; so look forward to more of your perspective and sharing on that.

ps. yesterday went well
I "won"
by that I mean I got the resolution I wanted or aimed for.
that resolution is not about (metaphorically) getting people on the floor and kicking their head in...

the psychology of "battle" can apply to many areas of life. And I have had to adapt to difficult situation in family, business, trading and life in general. Applying tai chi philosophy to everything is a hobby. Sometimes I fail miserably, but I get up keep trying. that's what it's all about. Survival. Life is essentially a survival game, but get used to suffering... basically.
The mind is powerful, but no infallible.

fight or flight responses need management and an understanding of them can even be used favourably.
ok. my train of thought has petered out..

have a good day; today I'm celebrating !
gotta love that money baby .
hell, I freaking deserve it!
(in jokes)

I spent the whole day yesterday in a top tier law firm doing psychological battle with people looking to take me and my family down a peg or two.
It has cost me a small fortune.. but it was worth it. Onwards and upwards. I really can't tell you how much that shit weighed on me for nearly two years. Family dragons needed slaying once and for all. Deep shit, no lie.

One day, I'm going to write a book. When I tell people some stuff.. they are like WTF!
It should be a best seller. anyway back to the tai chi systema talk eh. it's all me me me sometimes isn't it, ha ha.

god bless us all.

[marvin8]

there's nothing more fun, than rolling, wrestling and having a bit of a box or sanda or whatever really. pushing is fun too of course, moving fixed
developing skills, co-operatively. seeing how that force dynamics works. I like exploring soft skills as much as the next, tai chi guy.

If "soft skills" means skills that don't use force, then the aforementioned styles use both soft (yin) and hard (yang) skills—to some degree. In understanding how force dynamics works, cooperative resistance (e.g., realistic reaction) is important.

Excerpt from Beyond the Physical:

When you understand the biomechanics of movement, you know where the person is supposed to fall from your strike. You redirect your strike in the direction where he is falling. So, you understand the biomechanics. You make your fist follow your partner. Your fist is so relaxed that it changes direction in the movement. And, that is pretty scary for your partner. The expectation of the strike is a lot more scary than the strike itself. Just like the expectation of death is a lot scarier than death itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEZAVujeLN0

Fanatic Wrestling
Apr 1, 2019

In this Wrestling Techniques Video, J'Den Cox demonstrates Controlling Motion and Distance Techniques. Learning this will greatly enhance your wrestling skills.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bbMkK8B8eA

[cloudz]

well exactly... it's about control.
mental and physical

we can all go home now.

[origami_itto]

So what, precisely, is being trained here?

[GrahamB]

Sorry to interrupt the empty force talk, but here's the interview which inspired all this, in case anybody was interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0HLCJd8A0

[everything]

that's their tai chi re-enactment

[cloudz]

re-enactment, nice word to describe that type of work.
we used to say 'larp' way back when. and there's nowt 'wrong' with that.

will definitely watch that video G, thanks for posting it.

but having been thinking more on that kind of thing, at some point you have to talk about communication

[RobP3]

So what, precisely, is being trained here?

In a (small) nutshell, blending with and/or interrupting movement

[RobP3]

that's their tai chi re-enactment

Nope. Not larp either.

[cloudz]

as in, dead action real play

("basically") evading, misdirecting; a naughty stare here, whilst waving a "magic" hammer there.. and the other guy gets to be sensitive and aware to how to react and respond best.

a bit like Thor but without the costumes then?

[RobP3]

as in, dead action real play
("basically") evading, misdirecting; a naughty stare here, whilst waving a "magic" hammer there.. and the other guy gets to be sensitive and aware to how to react and respond best.
a bit like Thor but without the costumes then?

Nope
cheers
Rob

[cloudz]

the whole world is a stage ?
And he's just another actor.

Oh for sure, we will get there.
the heart of the mystery.

deeper and deeper into deep dark nightmare psychological territory.
the kind where alls that's left is you, four walls and a mirror.

straight jacket on standby.

[cloudz]

psychology IS mind control in these contexts

mind control is mind control.. cut it ANY way you like.

It's taiji guru master 101.
Hide from that fact as much as you like Rob.
Otherwise one day it's going to wake you up in your sleep mate.

'the details' of the special forces script can be done with.
Put it on the fire with the rest of the garbage.

Hero worship and putting people on a pedestal has had its day.

[RobP3]

psychology IS mind control in these contexts
mind control is mind control.. cut it ANY way you like.
It's taiji guru master 101.
Hide from that fact as much as you like Rob.
Otherwise one day it's going to wake you up in your sleep mate.
'the details' of the special forces script can be done with.
Put it on the fire with the rest of the garbage.
Hero worship and putting people on a pedestal has had its day.

I don't hero worship or put anyone on a pedestal, though. And that is certainly not a requirement for working with Mikhail.
By that definition, pretty much everything is mind control. Better , then, to be aware of how it works?
But Mikhail doesn't set himself up as a guru. Nor does he teach taiji.
My sleep? What? Special forces?
Granted, if your interest is solely in friendly sports sparring, psychology and many other things are not really an issue. People outside Systema seem far more obsessed with this one particular aspect of training than people in Systema. I guess we have a different perspective, and see it as just one piece of the jigsaw.