Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

[gzregorz]

People might get the wrong idea that you lean all the time in Wu.
I have just been correcting a students square form and one thing I have had trouble getting him to understand is the aspect of standing up the leaning posture between postures to bring him back to central equilibrium

Well if you watch this you will see there is definitely a slight forward "lean" that sometimes occurs in the style when compared with the Yang. Of course you never stay that way and you do return to center, but if someone if just doing taiji for health (as they say) then I think the Yang could be a good choice.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KGL8jv1RwQ

To me it's no different than the forward lean you'd do in fencing, boxing or wrestling to close the distance between you and your opponent. No it's not 90 degrees and again if you just do some simple stretches it's not an issue but there's is no denying that it is there.

The only reason I point it out is because my mother does the Yang and I think it's a good choice for her because it shows her how she should always stand upright. The way I see it most people (in the West) aren't going to do taiji for 20 years, most will check in for 2 and check out. That being the case I think it's good that they got that. I notice aikido people have good posture too because they also emphasis this principle and carry it with them.

I'm not converting to the Yang (besides I'm not really into learning lots of forms), but I've been in the game long enough to recognize that each style of taiji offers something and it's good to recognize what those things are.

[johnwang]

It looks like the same degree of leaning to me.

[gzregorz]

Thanks Sifu Wang. Good point, I hadn't thought about how the Yang may have changed.

I was thinking in comparison to Chen Man Ching's form. I admit I don't know much about the style but this is usually what I see people doing. Although I imagine your teacher was doing it the way it was originally meant to be done. I appreciate it and I'm glad to see this thread is back on track.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsDPy7zMrA4

[Niall Keane]

"no hollows no bumbs"

the back leg!!! the bent knee! always the bent knee with CMC! it simply does not conform to structural dynamics in regards transferring force down to earth in compression and so avoiding tension!

In Wu Style alignment is kept (at finish) between heel and head-top, keeps the spine strong and open capable of transformation by simply turning, if its compressed to one side (upright when pressing forward for example the back of the spine is naturally closed so incapable of further compression and so the legs must be used to adjust to any resistance by dropping and releasing the pressure before turning.
This in my opinion is why Wu is considered "small frame" and Yang "large" (although in reality it is down to the individual practitioner), the Wu alignment allows for easier, quicker and smaller adjustment to deal with force.

Then again I'm thinking combat not form!

[johnwang]

It all depends on whether you believe to "align your head, body, back leg in a straight line" is an important guideline or not. You have to lean if you follow it, otherwise you don't have to and your straight line will bend on your waist. To me, this is a general guideline and should be applied to all TCMA styles if we are talking about "combat" application and not just "health".

This guideline is so important that some styles such as long fist and SC would start this kind of training on day one.

[Niall Keane]

Totally agree John! We seem to be on the same page again!

[johnwang]

That straight line training is good for health too.

[johnwang]

That straight line training is good for health too.



We can see a perfect straight line in this clip:

[gzregorz]

Makes sense. Why do you suppose Chen Man Ching took it out? At least from what I can see the hips are almost always right below the shoulders.

[johnwang]

Makes sense. Why do you suppose Chen Man Ching took it out? At least from what I can see the hips are almost always right below the shoulders.

Maybe for some unshaped old people, that straight line guideline is hard to follow. It does require a much wider range of the body movement. When your body has to move in wider range, it require more out of you. For example, it take more energy to do a SC hip throw than to do a XingYi Beng Quan in solo drill.

This is why I have always believed that under the name of "health for old people", people can change TCMA anyway they want to.

[gzregorz]

Good point!

[windwalker]

this teacher is explaining things from an inner reference point of view giving outer shape to his posters.

[Niall Keane]

Makes sense. Why do you suppose Chen Man Ching took it out? At least from what I can see the hips are almost always right below the shoulders.

Maybe for some unshaped old people, that straight line guideline is hard to follow. It does require a much wider range of the body movement. When your body has to move in wider range, it require more out of you. For example, it take more energy to do a SC hip throw than to do a XingYi Beng Quan in solo drill.

This is why I have always believed that under the name of "health for old people", people can change TCMA anyway they want to.

Definitely the same page

Here's a quick comparison:



and my own Sigung:



In fact I think one will find it hard to find an example of TCC similar to CMC. I've heard said by CMC lads that the vertical back to the ground is to develop "relaxation" and not to be used in fighting, but you fight how you train, train bad habits and under the pressure of combat they will be exaggerated!

If we analyse the photos we can see that yes Wu Jian Chuan has his ass sticking out slightly and his forward arm is very straight by comparison, Yang Cheng fu has his knee slightly bent too much (they are always slightly bent and never locked obviously!), but in fairness forming a bow, not totally collapsed. Cheng Tin Hung (who is more modern (videos etc.) and our info on him more accessible and undisputedly could fight well, and train fighters) seems to have the "lean" too! Very straight though? The differences in my opinion are acceptable in personal variation for a "style". CMC on the other hand??? I know this will probably piss a lot of people off, especially in the USA where CMC seems to have been accepted as a master of TCC down to Smith etc. But the images don't lie! Either he is doing "sick" TCC or he does something that may work but is not in accord with TCC as a style, and so is something different.

I have drawn a green vertical from the midpoint of their legs, notice its intersection with the line of foot-head alignment, think on the lines from classics and how "this sickness can be found etc....." and how important and stressed the hips, waist and upper legs are in such classics, as "the general" commanding movement and power and once again note the intersection! Think of how one can support with structure (buy time to "ting") and then suddenly drop and empty an opponent! Enough clues?? If not simply wrestle or spar and enlightenment will be forthcoming!

[johnwang]

In this clip, he explained "how". Sometime if you just explain "why", people will be able to figure out "how". To me, "why" is more important than "how".

[Niall Keane]

this teacher is explaining things from an inner reference point of view giving outer shape to his posters.

ah Christ!!!! another jumping jack student!!! Once I see that, it becomes a farce and meaningless! an affront to real martial artists!
Tell me this if the "master" is so good, why is his student sent flying? My students learn to weather the storm, be unmovable if they desire, and have unbreakable intent!

In my style the first thing the teacher says is: "Im not going to train you to be as good as me..... pregnant pause, I'm going to train you to be better then me! I'm going to teach you everything I know and you will also have your own ideas and skills, so combined that's more then me!"
Imagine that? a IMA that believes in evolution not hero worship, in developing fighters not worshipers!!! No wonder we succeed!

My Sifu Dan Docherty once asked (over a friendly beer) my TCC elder brother and sanshou coach Paul Mitchel (a man who among many achievements won the IMAF 2005 Shaui Jiao comp over 3 days against 53 countries without conceding a point) if he thought he "could take him" in Dan's lovable Glaswegian! Paul answered: " Well Dan, I would hate it to come to that, but you did train us to never give up!" Dan scowled and half laughed, it was obvious he knew his job was well done!
Now that is a student! That is what a coach / master should seek to produce! not a wishy-washy sycophantic house of cards ready to collapse with a puff of air.

and dont give me the "demo" crap. I've plenty of vids on youtube, I tell my students whats going to happen and usually they resist - makes my job harder, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I follow this up with vids of me and them fighting in sanshou, as evidence that the training produces results, if one cares to examine the EXACT same techniques are applied AS TAUGHT INCLUDING STRATEGY AND TACTICS! There is no justification, especially today where informed analysis exists, for presenting such "magic" as presented in this video as practical. It highlights only delusion and degrades the entire art by association! Truly shameful!!!