what is MMA missing?

[Chris McKinley]

Doc Stier,

RE: "While admitting that such observations may well be true of most CMA's, I once again find your comments to be sweeping, one-size fits all blanket statements which simply don't represent everyone in the traditional Chinese martial arts.". They don't need to represent everyone to be valid. In addition, with the exception of cases where digital categoric statements are applicable, I carefully (if you'll take the time to notice) include such caveat words and clauses as "...with enough frequency to even bother mentioning", "tendency", "generally", "The bigger picture here is...", etc. The exceptions to my points in these cases are so vanishingly rare as to be nearly pointless to mention.

RE: "I'll bet that I'm not the only one who doesn't like being lumped into your general categories of incompetence.". It would be a gross loss of perspective to ignore a 99 percentile trend in order to focus on the few tiny exceptions just so that those folk don't feel 'slighted' in some way. Besides, if the shoe fits wear it. If it does not, don't. Objective critique either applies in a given example such as yours or it does not....personal feelings are irrelevant because no individual person is being singled out for ad hominem critique. Like it or not, you and I both are part of an activity which by and large is practiced in such a way as to not be realistic preparation for real combat. I think you already know that. I certainly do, and it bothers me. Still, my personal feelings aside, that doesn't change the fact that it is nonetheless a true statement.

RE: "It seems as if you always express such opinions in order to promote your own public image as a fighter, which is OK I guess if that's what you need, but there's really nothing special about that.". Pure bullshit. You're inventing that straight out of your ass. I have made no claim whatsoever about my personal abilities nor skills in teaching them in this thread. Further, objectively speaking, even if I had boasted my ass off, it would have no bearing either way on the actual points I made being valid. Now, do you have a specific objection to any of the points I made or not?

RE: "Newsflash! FYI, you are not the only one out there who knows how to apply their arts to real fighting". Newsflash! I have never, nor do now, claim that to be the case. In fact, I have repeatedly and explicitly stated that such is not the case. Now, do you have a specific objection to any of the points I made or not?

I will be happy to amend or even rescind any or all of my points as appropriate if they can be shown to be inaccurate either in part or in whole.

[JAB]

Dog-
I know, I know. I guess I am a hopeless dreamer in that if I can reach one person out there and help them be better via my words, teaching, or whatever, then it was all worth it. Not sure if I have (or ever will) reach that one person, but I am perpetually optimistic in that respect. I agree with you 100% though bro! How are things in LaLa land?

Deus-
You have little idea of what you are talking about in terms of back of the head preperation, and aggressiveness in MMA. And the intent "thing" is as simple as I stated it. Start another thread, but that would not change anything.

Cheers
Jake

[JAB]

Good post Chris! I agree with you.

[humbleboxer]

RobP2 your points are valid. again it depends on your goal. I think the problem is that many people are not truthful to themselves in what they want or need. no one needs to fight. a fighter is a person who has a desire to fight. martial arts has many levels and people like water, tend to flow to what ever level they are at.

[yusuf]

One silat friend talked about modifying a rugby drop knee to counter a double leg takedown.

I'd love to know what that is, what is it mate?

super secret squirrel style...

[DeusTrismegistus]

Dog-
I know, I know. I guess I am a hopeless dreamer in that if I can reach one person out there and help them be better via my words, teaching, or whatever, then it was all worth it. Not sure if I have (or ever will) reach that one person, but I am perpetually optimistic in that respect. I agree with you 100% though bro! How are things in LaLa land?

Deus-
You have little idea of what you are talking about in terms of back of the head preperation, and aggressiveness in MMA. And the intent "thing" is as simple as I stated it. Start another thread, but that would not change anything.

Cheers
Jake

That was an example used to illustrate a general point. That point being that what is trained for MMA will not be optimal for street defense, it can't by definition because there are two separate arenas and require different approach, albeit with a lot of overlap. Thats not to say that TMA training is optimal for street defense either, it usually is worse off for lack of effective transition from compliant to non-compliant. However it is a mistake to think that training that is optimized for one venue will be automatically optimized for another.

[Fubo]

Back to where these discussions usually end up... No generalities as a generality (on both side of the fence).

[DeusTrismegistus]

Back to where these discussions usually end up... No generalities as a generality (on both side of the fence).

Well you know if someone says something is missing from MMA GOD FORBID it can't be true. MMA is the best martial art for everything now. Its the new ninja.

[Fubo]

Back to where these discussions usually end up... No generalities as a generality (on both side of the fence).

Well you know if someone says something is missing from MMA GOD FORBID it can't be true. MMA is the best martial art for everything now. Its the new ninja.

Yes, MMA is the best ninja martial art!!! My post clearly indicates that point of view.

[BruceP]

what is MMA missing? All these IMA fighters I keep hearing about.

B - still waiting for someone to show us how it's done

[Darth Rock&Roll]

hmmm, lemme think.

as a fighting art, mma isn't really missing anything.

they got:

punch, kick, throw and lock

they have ranges such as

1.out
2.long
3.short
4.clinch
5.ground

they have training methodologies for conditioning and stamina as well as development of techniques within all those ranges.

so, it's missing weapons.

It is definitely an evolved form of martial arts that has been shown, again and again and again to supercede pretty much most other martial arts out there virtually bar none (except those weapon based ones).

If you come in here and say it is missing chi development or ligature stretching, bone densifying, chakra opening or any of that, then head out back to the wood pile and immediately chop your cock off for being an idiot.

any martial art can find it's place in the mma format.

get with it, or stay antiquated. period.

[chicagoTaiJi]

MMA isn't a martial art, it's a fad. Or a "mix" of other martial arts at least....

[johnwang]

When really fighting you want to hit to the places you are NOT supposed to hit! When sparring, be careful of those areas." - Hu Xi Lin

May be the "only" thing that's missing in MMA is

- How to use illegal moves effectively.
- How to win and not following the rules.

The rules are set up for safety reason. If we examine the rules then we will find out those "illegal moves" may have the "highest combat value". Moving your hand horizontally across your opponent's eyes with your finger tips may give you the best "starting" for a fight than a punch to the face. I just watched "The Red belt' and "Never Back Up" on TV the other day. When your opponent covers his head with both arms and tries to survive under your punches on the ground, the thumb into the eyes may have the best effect. Illegal move? Yes! Combat value? No question about it.

[Daniel]

Well, Yusuf, I thought it was brave of you to post this thread. I expected the answers to be mostly defenses about MMA without going into the full details of IMA for actual combat, and...hey, thank god that didn´t happen.

1) Most opinions on the thread pro MMA have been that you can´t compare it with IMA for similar six month training programs. You could, if you layered the IMA training correctly. Also, of course, why should you? If it´s for competition, then you can´t compare, because genuine IMA are not competition based. If it´s for military purposes, then the training would be very different to begin with, and in my experience IMA has more to offer with some of its skills than EMA have for that specific field.

2) Cricitally important as a difference, IMA marries combat ability with health, steadily increasing both over your lifetime way up into old age. If you know IMA and chinese medicine in depth, you know that you cannot say the same about MMA. Like I have commented before, it will be very interesting to see the health the current MMA only practitioners have in 10, 20, 30, 40 years time.

However, MMA is trendy right now, and most IMA doesn´t contain a lot of information about usage in real life or for combat, so the general consensus that would be seen on a thread like this on EF is pretty predictable.

Again, hat off, Yusuf, for bravery.

Edited: also, as this thread has been up in various guises before, one important question: what does an "MMA practitioner" mean? What style/styles are we talking about, exactly? What techniques? What focus? What kind of reality based training or not? With the current lack of precision it´s like discussing whether 10 italians would win over 6 frenchmen if they´re armed with water pistols filled with blue paint on a really hot tuesday in June.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[JAB]

John-
How often do you "train" thumbs in the eye with your students?

Daniel-
Health is general. Perhaps MMA fighters will have more joint issues, concussion issues etc. etc. But that is because they got in there and "did" something. Those who choose IMA for "health," which should really read "never really push themselves in combative situations nor challenge the limits of their bodies and mental abilities....," are basically the fat, lazy, qi huggers who choose to do forms so they can live long and prosper! Of course you will not have the physical issues that a warrior would. Instead you will have all sorts of other issues associated with obesity, laziness, etc. etc.

The "health" cop out is pitiful guys. You do not have to get hurt to train MMA/BJJ. And if you are training your "IMA" in a realistic manner you accept just as many risks as MMA / BJJ! Just because your teacher knows some Tui Na or Acupuncture does not mean you will be in better shape 10-20-30 years down the road. Same goes for training IMA, just because you do Taiji does not mean you will out live (or live healthier) a MMA / BJJ cat.
These general comments show a lack of understanding of how to train in general, and an ignorant bias against something that most of you fear. The "fad" has been around for quite sometime, even in CMA I wrote an article years ago about cross training in Shuai Chiao, Boxing, and Mantis with Pu En Fu and his student Hu Xi Lin. Hell, even the men you all hold in such high esteem (Yin Fu / Cheng Ting Hua / Chang Dung Shen) all cross trained in different arts. Seems to me the "fad" has left some of you in the dust and you are bitter about being left out of the reindeer games