Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

[Steve James]

It depends on whether my arms are free or not. It also depends on whether I can move faster than my opponent or not. I don't like to be the car and wait forever.

Well, c'mon, everything "depends." Sure, if you can depend on superior speed or strength, there's rarely a problem. If you don't have that, it will depend on lots of other elements.

The "leaning" involves a lot of other elements. Nobody will be stupid enough and just lean and give his opponent a chance to take advantage on him.

Yeah, who'd put himself in that position. Unless he's a fish taking bait.

[GrahamB]

Perect examples of the perils of leaning -

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-sla ... -weidman-i

[johnwang]

If you don't have that, it will depend on lots of other elements.

It depends on your "entering strategy". A good "entering strategy" will try to reduce your opponent's legs and arms function to the minimum.

[johnwang]

Perect examples of the perils of leaning -

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-sla ... -weidman-i

I like that picture. This go back to what we have discussed, "If you don't train how to lean like that in your solo form, where will you train if solo form is the only thing that you do?"

Unless you train this too.

[GrahamB]

Which picture?

The article is about how Silva gets opponents to lean then knocks them out and how Weidman countered that.

[johnwang]

Which picture?

The article is about how Silva gets opponents to lean then knocks them out and how Weidman countered that.

Lean back to dodge a punch. Whether he got himself knocked out later on is another issue. At least he got away from "that" head punch.

[johnwang]

1. He was young.
2. His body had leaning.
3. He had perfect body alignment (head, body, leg in a perfect straight line).

[cdobe]

Yeeeee Gads Cdobe, not you as well? I've said several times, explicitly, in this thread that I've got no problem with leaning (as John points out, you can't throw people without leaning ffs!!!!!). But I've also got no problem with not leaning (that's fine for striking and some chin na).

My posts have been about defending 'not leaning' people like, for example Cheng man Ching, from the rabid attacks of guys like Nial, who seem to think its an error. Both are fine in my eyes - you do what is required by the applicantion you're doing.

Yeah, it's funny how people seem deaf to that. They keep telling me what I mean.

Yes, both of you say things like "there is nothing wrong with leaning", which ironically already implies that there is , but then you seem to argue that it were inconsistent with the requirements for practicing and applying Tajiquan, citing English translations of Chinese texts (maybe I misread Graham, who at least makes an exception in regards to throwing ). My point has been, that these translations are not as plain and simple as one might think and there are more things to consider, when interpreting these old texts.

And this is why I wrote the following, which is another translation of the phrase in question.

Steve, don't be biased, don't depend on the English translation you have grown so fond of

Just dropping in again briefly to thank Steve James for his persistence in what, to me, looks like some first rate Socratic method and also to support Graham and Patrick on the thread.

So many straw men here I am starting to wonder if the world really will end not with a bang but a whimper. . .

I don't know, Omar, but have you ever once in years heard Steve concede to a point, admitting that maybe he had been wrong or is not qualified enough to argue it? I haven't.
In this discussion he has become defensive, it seems: „Yeah, it's funny how people seem deaf to that. They keep telling me what I mean.“. On another thread he keeps asking Devlin, where he teaches Taiji and which style and knows the answer to it, namely that he doesn't. So his point seems to be, that Devlin is not qualified to speak about Taijiquan, which is an argumentum ad hominem. I would really hope that he for once would write down his views and not just go out of his way to find examples to the contrary or at least what he perceives as such.

[cdobe]

Question for Wu stylists:

If the hips and waist always move as a unit in your forms (4:00), what do you use to cultivate separation of hips and waist? High-level guys like Eddie certainly seem to have a high degree of hip/waist differentiation, I'm sure they didn't get it by accident.

AK

Interpreting yao as kua is specific to the branch that has been passed down from Wu Gongyi within the family. It is not what "Wu style" does. If you want an answer to why they do it this way, you'll have to ask a practitioner of their lineage.

[Steve James]

Hey, I'm here

In this discussion he has become defensive, it seems: „Yeah, it's funny how people seem deaf to that. They keep telling me what I mean.“. On another thread he keeps asking Devlin, where he teaches Taiji and which style and knows the answer to it, namely that he doesn't. So his point seems to be, that Devlin is not qualified to speak about Taijiquan, which is an argumentum ad hominem. I would really hope that he for once would write down his views and not just go out of his way to find examples to the contrary or at least what he perceives as such.

Well, afa conceding a point or saying that I was not qualified to talk about something. Here's exactly what I wrote in the other thread.

Ah, is Wu/Hao the style that you teach? Anyway, afa "fa" in Wu/Hao, well, he did learn Chen style. As you must know, that's why there's also a "lazy about tying coat" movement not found in the strictly Yang derivatives. However, the example that you give above seems even less like bagua mechanics. I've never taught bagua, so I can't say whether there's a "fajing" set. Besides, there are plenty of writings by the old bagua masters. Jarek has some goodies on his ChinaFromInside site.

I wouldn't dream of explaining to a bagua practitioner what the texts in his art meant, the proper understanding of it or how practitioners were getting it wrong, especially if I didn't practice that art. I don't offer my opinion on xingyi or any other martial art, even if I've dabbled with them. No one can learn tcc from a book. It takes a good teacher and study. I've had several tcc teachers, have competed with it, and have studied those texts for 40 years. Yes, those "English translations" have been all I've depended on. But, I've spoken with lots of translators over the years, from Doug Wile to Louis Swaim to Wen Zee. To me, those are authorities. No one who doesn't practice is. Though everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.

Re: being defensive, maybe, but it's not personal. I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a CMCer, but I have lots of friends who are. So, I feel offended when they're slagged. There's free speech, and I can't do anything about it. However, some of them might be listening, and I'd be ashamed not to speak up. Maybe you can understand why it would be particularly grating to hear those criticisms coming from people who don't even practice tcc. It just reminds me of 40 years ago when very few in this country thought that tcc was a martial art at all. The same snickers and smug "that won't work" attitude. Yeah, it still bugs me. That's just the way it is.

So, that's where I'm at, if it answers your question.

[Steve James]

[/quote]Interpreting yao as kua is specific to the branch that has been passed down from Wu Gongyi within the family. It is not what "Wu style" does. If you want an answer to why they do it this way, you'll have to ask a practitioner of their lineage.[/quote]

Exactly.

[GrahamB]

Cdobe, nah don't give that GrahamB the benefit of the doubt - he is clearly anti- leaning , he just pretends he isn't so people will like him!

[johnwang]

Can we have some opinions on these questions?

- Will you consider yourself lean if your gravity center is still in your base (as shown in the following clip)?
- Does body alignment that head, body, back leg on a perfect straight line mean anything to your training (as shown in the following clip)?
- Do you need to lean in order to reach?
- If solo form is all you do, and if you don't train how to lean in your solo form then where will you train it?

[johnwang]

I feel offended when they're slagged. There's free speech, and I can't do anything about it. However, some of them might be listening, and I'd be ashamed not to speak up.

Steve:

This do go both ways. You are not the only one that felt "offended". To you, you want your spine to be vertical. To me, I want my spine to line up with my back leg. I (many of my friends as well) have spent all my life (their lives too) trying to keep body alignment that head, body, leg in a perfect straight line.

The following is an ancient "picture". It should carry as much weight as any ancient "text".



My gravity center may be still inside of my base, or already outside of my base, that depend on application.

When some post said that "lean is wrong/bad/defect/dangerous/...". It just likes a slap on my face. I can either find a rope, get a quite place, and hang myself (Because I'm so stupid to waste my training time all this years), or I can come up as many pictures and clips as possible to prove "why lean is necessary".

So far you have not proved that "lean is not necessary" yet. Let's keep this discussion as an official record so our future generation won't have to go through this debating again.

[Bao]

If the hips and waist always move as a unit in your forms (4:00), what do you use to cultivate separation of hips and waist?

This is not just a wu question or a certain lineage question. There are some yang stylists as well who move like this. The biggest trouble is that it's very easy to compensate the unablity to reach far to "look back" (as in "brush knees" or ""step back and repulse monkey") by twisting the knees. Twisting the knees is one of those silent knee killers that many practitioners don't realize that they do. It's not always visually appearent so it can be very hard to spot even for a well educated teacher. "Whole body coordination" is extremely iportant, but you really need to be able to separate the different body parts when you practise to not hurt the body when performing the different movements of a tai chi form. This is IME the same through out all of Tai Chi styles.