the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

By the time someone learns real fa Jing distance and timing should be well ingrained
So how the opponent moves to nullify it should only matter to the same degree it does to a boxer
People have been deluded by all the silly demos and deceptive teachers out there
What I see people doing as fa Jing is little more than karate Kime in most cases
And not done as well
It's like falling into a hole or being attracted by a magnet
Hitting a nail on the head you can always see the skilled carpenter
As my son says about his art ,it's all miles on the brush

Attached is a basic clip from Mark Rasmus.

The way I learned this basically has the force of your partner loading onto your ligaments and tendons and then rebounding off of your structure.

I've primarily used this as a kind of partner paired tendon training method. Martially, my timing and footwork would need to be much better for this to be useful in that context than it is now.

I've talked to friends in other systems, such as xing yi and bagua, and they reported no need for an opponent's force to load onto the body to use their version of fah jing.

So, obviously training methods and results vary.

However this method does an excellent job of training the structure of the body and I've found that useful for a variety of purposes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Zg0YGMqL4

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

It's the same thing. If he stands further back and punches him in the face with it then it's what we are talking about. Watch the second instructional video on my website and I am doing exactly the same thing and teach how to train it. The only difference is that I tell my students not to jump, ever. I ask them to resist. It doesn't look as impressive, but it's much more practical.

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

The third video is not blindly attacking at all. It's called bridging. Of course there are counters to counter attacks and all that. I specifically mentioned that it was a demo and that my student had only learned from me for ONE month. If he hadn't moved he would have gotten hit really hard. I just wanted to show what the 12 Core Postures were meant to look like, taken in their most basic form, in a sparring format. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not a sparring video, but a sparring demo.

We were in a rush because it was the last afternoon before Ramadan and my student didn't want to train for a whole month. Didn't have time to get the shots exactly like I wanted them. I chose to represent a small part of my training in this way, just to show what the movements mean. Don't you think that it's unfair to make baseless assumptions regarding the rest of the material that has never seen the light of day, especially when I have seen ZERO of what you or your master/s are training?

You posted a video of someone pushing a student. I posted mine. I don't see how his is more internal than mine.. Or do students have to jump in the air for it to be considered internal?

I don't have anything against IMA. I practise an IMA. The problem is that you are saying that only what you do is IMA. Rope-pulling, pole-shaking etc. is a part of IMA. There is no IMA without EMA. I have a problem with training programmes that don't work as advertised, that are unrealistic. The only difference between IMA and EMA is that IMA leans more heavily towards IMA. Both overlap. Surely the Yin-Yang theories in the classics support that notion??? There are many ways to go about developing internal power.

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

Appledog wrote:Maarteen with all due respect what does rope pulling, tree hitting, throwing blind techniques (ala 3rd video) and pulling people off-balance have to do with internal martial arts?

Perhaps nothing. Perhaps everything. In the end it depends on what the term internal really means.

For example is yielding internal? If so then a good wrestler is also an internal master because they also get sensitivity, leverage & moving people into gaps. But I would go further. Who needs 4 ounces when zero ounces works even better (eg duck). So technically a more softer internal method is what a boxer might do.

Is internal about throwing chi balls? To date the record for this has been very poor so lets move on.

Is it about taking balance and control? Ask any judoka about that and it won't be very different.

The only thing I have seen that is internal is the use of a connected whole body, structured right, without major tension blocks and is fluid . This get's applied on a highly leveraged position done either slow, light, fast, sharp etc.

Appledog wrote:Maybe what I need is to practice this kind of rope pulling and tree hitting myself for a couple of months and see what I get out of it.

From what I have seen this is a secret of internal stylists who could deliver the goods. Go out and show people a form and do push hands paying close attention to structure & sensitivity. Then behind closed doors lift weights using the whole body and the right structure, pull ropes or whatever and hit things. The bones get denser and the tendons get stronger. When working heavy weight in a fluid fashion you need to use the whole body or else the limbs won't be enough.

Then when doing gentle push hands in a soft fashion there is a roaring powerhouse that is backing it up. People go flying and think that it was all because of a form but that was one part of the picture.

Couldn't have put it better myself, Dspyrido. It's the secret that most masters won't tell their students. I'm fortunate that mine has taught it from day one.

Appledog, my point about the video is not that it wasn't done well, but that not all of the examples were as pretty as they could have been with more time. I still happily stand by them, though, because oftentimes fighting is just not as pretty as we imagined in our heads. My point was that only a very small portion of the training was covered in this video, so it's best not to judge the book by its first chapter.

dspyrido wrote:

Appledog wrote:Maarteen with all due respect what does rope pulling, tree hitting, throwing blind techniques (ala 3rd video) and pulling people off-balance have to do with internal martial arts?

Perhaps nothing. Perhaps everything. In the end it depends on what the term internal really means.

For example is yielding internal? If so then a good wrestler is also an internal master because they also get sensitivity, leverage & moving people into gaps. But I would go further. Who needs 4 ounces when zero ounces works even better (eg duck). So technically a more softer internal method is what a boxer might do.

Is internal about throwing chi balls? To date the record for this has been very poor so lets move on.

Is it about taking balance and control? Ask any judoka about that and it won't be very different.

The only thing I have seen that is internal is the use of a connected whole body, structured right, without major tension blocks and is fluid . This get's applied on a highly leveraged position done either slow, light, fast, sharp etc.
Donn F. Draeger

Appledog wrote:Maybe what I need is to practice this kind of rope pulling and tree hitting myself for a couple of months and see what I get out of it.

From what I have seen this is a secret of internal stylists who could deliver the goods. Go out and show people a form and do push hands paying close attention to structure & sensitivity. Then behind closed doors lift weights using the whole body and the right structure, pull ropes or whatever and hit things. The bones get denser and the tendons get stronger. When working heavy weight in a fluid fashion you need to use the whole body or else the limbs won't be enough.

Then when doing gentle push hands in a soft fashion there is a roaring powerhouse that is backing it up. People go flying and think that it was all because of a form but that was one part of the picture.

Now i do believe through my own practice(not so much), but more from experiencing and meeting with people especially here in China that in practicing 'pure' CIMA one can develop some very 'nice' skills. But sure I also have played with the thought that the IMA masters in old times actually did practice something that could be considered serious weight lifting, many years ago I was thinking in these lines when it came to for example the founders of Daito-ruy and Aikido. And I think I read sometime that in more recently history that Donn F. Draeger was responsibly for introducing serious weight lifting to Judo practice in Japan, and thus making the Judokas there 'better' competitors.

Trick, the weight-lifting was always there, but it's things like training with weapons, shaking heavy poles or holding bricks in your hands when you train. It's really tiring and I can understand why most wouldn't want to train that way when they can achieve invincible power without breaking a sweat..

MaartenSFS wrote:Trick, the weight-lifting was always there, but it's things like training with weapons, shaking heavy poles or holding bricks in your hands when you train. It's really tiring and I can understand why most wouldn't want to train that way when they can achieve invincible power without breaking a sweat..

Two weight lifting execises that I lately have thought about that seem to have TJ principles within and could be a good addition to ones training(but should probably be practiced when 'younger'') are the two Olympic disciplines 'Clean and Jerk' and ' Snatch'. During my time in the Japanese MA I used to practice with a 'suburi bokken' a Japanese wooden sword that is thicker and heavier, often used as a practice/conditioning tool, I found that practice quite good too. The pole shaking seem as a good an useful exercise, but althought my many years here in China I have never met someone that practice this(at least not openly), but then I have not looked or asked for someone to teach it.

On the topic of fajin, my view is in line with that of my Bagua teacher: "Focus on developing hunyuan li, and fajin will come naturally."

The idea is that once you've acquired hunyuan lie (i.e.,whole-body power) and a stable structure that is internally connected, fajin is just a matter of "accelerating" that structure.

The speed at which you accelerate is what makes the difference between a push that launches the opponent away -- but causes little damage -- and an inch-punch that breaks bones.

C.J.W. wrote:On the topic of fajin, my view is in line with that of my Bagua teacher: "Focus on developing hunyuan li, and fajin will come naturally."

The idea is that once you've acquired hunyuan lie (i.e.,whole-body power) and a stable structure that is internally connected, fajin is just a matter of "accelerating" that structure.

The speed at which you accelerate is what makes the difference between a push that launches the opponent away -- but causes little damage -- and an inch-punch that breaks bones.

I would think the point would be where a person is at in releasing or using "jin"
behind it, with it, or ahead of it.

What many "see" is an obvious release which in most cases means they are behind it, IMO/IME its to slow.
which is why this type of release is not seen or used in matches with others who are trying to knock one down.

A chen stylist I met once a teacher once remarked that "yang" style had no fa jin...
I said this is incorrect it does. He asked to feel it.

I put my hand on him and asked if he felt it....having already "released" it traveled through him.
He said "no" I said ok, this time I will follow with my body. He fell down to the ground and thought it was pretty good.

He then told me he would allow me to feel his. His motion was much like many of those shown here. 2 movements
which looks impressive but didnt work out to well. I told him I felt his skill was good very strong...

what I didn't say is that it was very obvious the store release cycle to long...

I mention these things in the spirit of conversation.
not in talking about my own lack of of skill or others that have skill.

People should worry less about Fajin and more about momentum.