the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Well, this Lu -> Ji issue is as obvious as yin and yang, back and forward. Imo, it doesn't mean that Lu (Rollback move) has to be followed by Ji (Press/Squeeze), any more than Peng (ward off left) has to be followed by Peng (ward off right).

Arm-"drags" are imo always similar to Lu, but what follows them doesn't have to be Ji (Press). I used John's video of someone using Slant Flying to throw. We could reduce it to a Pull -> Push.

It's less terms of "Push" and "Pull"

it's leading them into emptiness, and when they're there, doing what you want with them

Agreeing with Steve and origami.

The basic lu/rollback, done well, can cause the opponent to overextend his arm or his whole center. Then you can lead him on and unbalance him, like the matador's cape with the bull. Or connect with and lock up the overextended arm, adding to his momentum and spiralling him into the ground using your waist and kua. Or turn more sharply and break the arm. For instance.

IF the opponent senses his overextension in time and starts to pull back, then your front arm takes on more pengjin, sticking and following his arm and eating his space as he retreats. (Making him wish he actually had a little more 'emptiness' to play with). This can expose his center, and ji/press immediately follows into his spine/center, projecting out or shocking into the core.

That's all just correlations with the sequence in the form. In free play there are a thousand variants of moments where lu and ji arise and interact. Oh, and Cheng Man Ching's 4-technique pushing-hands pattern also shows how ji/press can arise directly from an/push.

And to come back to the original idea of turning your head or not: When doing these two moves in the form, I direct my gaze (and the tip of my nose) to wherever the opponent's center would be at any moment during this sequence.

Giles wrote:The basic lu/rollback, done well, can cause the opponent to overextend his arm or his whole center.

If you put pressure on top of your opponent's elbow joint (cover hand) and step back with circular footwork, you can take your opponent down.

Or rollback and press when they try to come in.

origami_itto wrote:Or rollback and press when they try to come in.

In your clip, when his opponent is down, will it be better if he just punches on the back of his opponent's head instead of pushing him back? His punch may end the fight right there. His push may just make the fight continue.

johnwang wrote:

origami_itto wrote:Or rollback and press when they try to come in.

In your clip, when his opponent is down, will it be better if he just punches on the back of his opponent's head instead of pushing him back? His punch may end the fight right there. His push may just make the fight continue.

The important part is, as you can see, he has the option to do either.

johnwang wrote:

Giles wrote:The basic lu/rollback, done well, can cause the opponent to overextend his arm or his whole center.

If you put pressure on top of your opponent's elbow joint (cover hand) and step back with circular footwork, you can take your opponent down.

Sure, that's also an option. In your video you're using more of a 'cold start' instead of initiating the technique by using his forward momentum and leading him into emptiness. And here you're doing it on the inside gate instead of the outside gate; on the inside gate the opponent can potentially still use his other arm. But then again, he won't be able to use his other arm if you do the technique well, which obviously you are doing in this video. So not a criticism here, more about preferences.

I just found this one of Mario showing some lu variations.



At 0.40 through to 1:25 he's on the inside gate and you can see very clearly how he's emptying his body on the left (yin), not even using the left arm, and filling up on the right (yang) to create the circle. Then until 2:15 he switches to the outside gate, which is the version I prefer personally and teach as the first application of the explicit lu move in the form. Then he returns to the inside gate (and you can see his judo influence coming out when he grabs the other guys T-shirt ). In all the variants he shows here you can see him emptying on one side and filling up on the other, which is why I've chosen to post this video.
Even when your oppenent's hand is on your rear arm, it's still the torso and hips on that side of the body that are emptying - your arm just empties along with the rest.

johnwang wrote:In your clip, when his opponent is down, will it be better if he just punches on the back of his opponent's head instead of pushing him back? His punch may end the fight right there. His push may just make the fight continue.

Or just pull your knife and stab straight into his brain stem. It's an easy angle. Now you can be even more certain...

Yep, Mario demos Rollback (Lu) application without a JI follow up. Of course, once his opponent was empty, he could have .

Anyway, he has grappling applications for all of his (CMC style) form. He studied with one of CMC's original students in NY.

Indeed. He's got some nice Stan Israel stories.

Isn’t anyone going to point out Mario,s errors
Is that the best you can find

Giles wrote:And here you're doing it on the inside gate instead of the outside gate; on the inside gate the opponent can potentially still use his other arm.

I still remember when my teacher taught me the "cover hand". I asked him, "How about my back free arm?" He then used his elbow to strike on my chest.



Dealing with my opponent's free arm when I'm in his front door is always interest to me. In that video,

- My opponent's right leg points to west, his left leg points to east.
- I stand on his south side and pull his leading right arm toward south. This will make his body to spin counterclockwise (top view). His left arm will move away from my body if I keep stepping back toward south.

His arm is longer than your elbow

wayne hansen wrote:His arm is longer than your elbow

"Comb hair" can be another solution when you are in your opponent's front door.





When you are in your opponent's front door and use both hands to control his leading arm, if he punches you with his back arm, you can then wrap his back arm, borrow his force, and ...