Yi quan and qi concept

[klonk]

Chi is not a theory...

Sure it is. It's just a question of what kind.

[jjy5016]

I'm just curious as to how many people in this thread actually study or have studied yiquan for any length of time.

I don't mean going to a workshop once a year and then doing some standing and walking. Nor do I mean reading books and watching videos.
I mean real yiquan, the whole nine yards. In case some didn't know already zhan zhuang, shi li, shi sheng and mo cha bo are all qigong methods.

Myself, it's been more than a decade learning from students of Zhang Chang Xin, the Han brothers and Kuo Lien Ying, all students
of yiquan's founder. All of whom neither denied nor overemphasized the place of qi in yiquan. If anyone remembers the four part interview with
Cui Rui Bin posted several weeks ago he clearly stated that his teacher Yao Zhong Xun acknowleged even the presence of empty force of all things
within the practice. Yu Yong Nian, one of the few surviving direct students of Wang Xiang Zhai teaches the empty force part of the art. Li Jiang Yu who
possibly spent the longest time with Wang also believes in the qi model.

FWIW

small John

[Strange]

"One must know that when exerted, the strength must be issued evenly and completely. In order to be entirely free from worry and to gain strength, one should also be at leisure and natural, that is just being reasonable. The students of modern times do not understand this truth, they spend dozens of years working hard, and instead of gaining lively bodies and minds from the training, they become machines. Is that not a great pity!"

for me this is much more important; and for me, the essence of "internal" studies.
heh you should see my teacher's look on his face whenever i say or do something against "leisure and natural"; its very subtle and hard to catch, but you know he thinks its very stupid and bad. he does not say it, but i know he even considers some forms/practice of internal arts to be in violation of this principle.

qi is integral to the study, but i discourage the study of qigong. i think zz is much more natural and much less dangerous.
we need qi to be natural; but the moment we discuss it, we becomes conscious of it and it becomes unnatural. if your breathing becomes unnatural how can your movements be alive?

also try not to talk of qi as something outside of you or something that you do not have and must get. i think it is something that everyone is born with but gradually lose. meaning it is not something that be more and more to have; it is something one has to be less and less to make it more obvious and manifested.

... perhaps this is why i do not agree with bruce lee's understanding of the art
fwiw, S.

[martialartist]

Chi is not a theory...

Sure it is. It's just a question of what kind.

no it's not, it's an abstract concept, but not a 'theory'.

is the weather, 天氣 (sky chi), a theory?

[Strange]

lol, klonk, i think he got you

[martialartist]

Strange, I don't think klonk is "wrong", just imprecise with his wording...

[Strange]

well imprecision is ok in ima. afterall, we are discussing in english an art that is originally in chinese. more fundamentally, it is based largely on the acceptance of coexistence of opposites as a whole; while western thinking are more inclined to explain, define and categorise.

so for me, being precise, using western type thinking, in here means tripping yourself up in all the key interesting places. woot!

[Wanderingdragon]

Hmmmm... aren't concepts developed , expounded, and verified by theory, damned dialectic, who knows if a white horse is even a horse , who's ever going to understand the Chinese mind

[wiesiek]

Chi is not a theory...

Sure it is. It's just a question of what kind.

no it's not, it's an abstract concept, but not a 'theory'.

is the weather, 天氣 (sky chi), a theory?

hmm,
'abstract concept' taken from direct experience?

"theory" better describe it
/closer to target/
- me thinking 2 euc

[klonk]

Chi is not a theory...

Sure it is. It's just a question of what kind.

no it's not, it's an abstract concept, but not a 'theory'.

is the weather, 天氣 (sky chi), a theory?

Ha ha. We ain't talkin' about the weather. And if we were talking about weather, in the same sense we are talking about qi in martial arts, we would be talking about a descriptive framework--we would be talking about meteorology. That seems to be in the realm of theory, and sometimes not very good theory, as you know if you have ever had to shovel a foot of "partly cloudy" out of your driveway.

I would frame the question this way, is the concept of qi as applied to describe one's goals and progress in martial arts a neccessary aspect, or traditionally inspired excess baggage? The model of the body we are using in IMA is essentially consistent with the pattern of thinking laid down by the Yellow Emperor, thousands of years ago. While I resist the characteristically Western tendency to say new things are always better than old, I am willing to consider old thinking alongside other models and newer perspectives.

[jjy5016]

"I'm just curious as to how many people in this thread actually study or have studied yiquan for any length of time."

No one?

Why am I not surprised.

[klonk]

Well, first of all, I don't know jack about yiquan. It is something I would very much like to learn, but there is no one in my area to teach me, and my present life situation prevents me from doing any significant traveling. But so what? The question of qi is involved in every Asian martial art I have encountered, and the problems Wang Xiang Zhai describes are evident in them all.

So you either keep the qi concept framework and work around its problems, or you look for a new conceptual frame. Yiquan is probably the perfect testbed to see how this works out, since as you note, some lines within yiquan do the first, some the second.

I'm just curious as to how many people in this thread actually study or have studied yiquan for any length of time.

I don't mean going to a workshop once a year and then doing some standing and walking. Nor do I mean reading books and watching videos.
I mean real yiquan, the whole nine yards. In case some didn't know already zhan zhuang, shi li, shi sheng and mo cha bo are all qigong methods.

Myself, it's been more than a decade learning from students of Zhang Chang Xin, the Han brothers and Kuo Lien Ying, all students
of yiquan's founder. All of whom neither denied nor overemphasized the place of qi in yiquan. If anyone remembers the four part interview with
Cui Rui Bin posted several weeks ago he clearly stated that his teacher Yao Zhong Xun acknowleged even the presence of empty force of all things
within the practice. Yu Yong Nian, one of the few surviving direct students of Wang Xiang Zhai teaches the empty force part of the art. Li Jiang Yu who
possibly spent the longest time with Wang also believes in the qi model.

FWIW

small John

[Sprint]

"I'm just curious as to how many people in this thread actually study or have studied yiquan for any length of time."

No one?

Why am I not surprised.

Dacheng has contributed significantly to this thread. You may remember a while back he corrected one of your "translations".....maybe we should leave it at that eh?

[jjy5016]

"Dacheng has contributed significantly to this thread. You may remember a while back he corrected one of your "translations".....maybe we should leave it at that eh?"

First of all it wasn't my translation wiseass. It was a translation and explaination of the meaning of an article by a native Chinese who taught literature, history and traditional caligraphy. I'll go with that any day before someone for whom the language is not native.

Secondly there are a lot more people posting on yiquan than just Dacheng. I've read plenty of your opinions on yiquan and personally I think you'd get more results by bending forward at the waist and blowing yourself.

[GrahamB]

Secondly there are a lot more people posting on yiquan than just Dacheng. I've read plenty of your opinions on yiquan and personally I think you'd get more results by bending forward at the waist and blowing yourself.

Finally - a functional use for Zhan Zhuang!