Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Danny on Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:08 pm

kenneth fish wrote:
I was also referring to your comment on Liang and Master Zhang. As I said, the Liang Tzupeng who was well known in Hong Kong (and not a mantis boxer) was someone Master Zhang was on good terms with. Moreover, I never heard from anyone on the island that Master Zhang had been on the losing end of an encounter with a mantis boxer of any stripe. That kind of thing would certainly have made the rounds.

As for Master Zhang and Master Zheng - they were certainly on decent terms. I have heard from several sources (as did Dan Miller, in the his research for the Pa Kua Journal ) that Master Zhang was instrumental in Master Zheng's employment by Madame Jiang. It was Master Zhang who had originally been approached to teach (he taught a version of Hao style taiji). He was not inclined to accept for a number of reasons. He was doing quite well financially at the time, both with the kung fu school and his various businesses. His fortunes relied heavily on the good will of the local Taiwanese (the benshengren). Although Master Zhang held President Jiang Jieshi in tremendous respect, he did not want to risk the stability of his enterprises by appearing to close to President Jiang and the KMT (this was not terribly long after the February 28th massacre, and it was very much in peoples minds.) At the same time Master Zheng was teaching in a park near the old downtown, and was apparently not financially in good straits. Master Zhang arranged for an invitation to be extended to Master Zheng in his stead - and so both profited from the arrangement.

My calligraphy teacher, LI Yali (Alice Li) was a Kuo Da Daibiao (National Representative - a legislative position) and herself both a student of and classmate to Pu Yi (the last emperor, who was a master of calligraphy). Whenever she would hear Zheng mentioned, she would mutter "wujue - pah!" (the last being a bit of a spitting noise) - again, he seemed to have alienated more than a few in the arts community.

I mention this as a means of pointing out that whatever his skill level was (and I frankly have no idea - I was never attracted to his system) he was not well regarded outside the narrow community of Taiji (and this was probably his own doing) . I think it is this (more than a question of skill) that made him an outcast in Chinese society. As for the States and abroad - perhaps the association of Master Zheng's taiji with so much of the New Age crowd has led to a questioning of his teachings.



Ken,

Perhaps the encounter in the park was how Liang Tzu-p’eng and Chang Chun-feng got to be friends! Even from Mr. Smith’s re-telling of the encounter it doesn’t sound like Liang and Chang had any animosity towards each other…

And it was very kind of Chang to defer his chance of teaching Madame Chiang to Prof. Cheng.

Regarding your esteemed calligraphy teacher, just how many times did Prof. Cheng’s name come up in her presence? And as for the “Wu Chueh” moniker, Prof. Cheng didn’t just decide to name himself that; it was bestowed upon him by Lin Sen, the Nationalist President of China from 1931-1943, on a calligraphic scroll in the 1940’s in Chungking!

If President Obama publically presented YOU with a scroll proclaiming “Kenneth Fish: Master of the Incredible” or some such title, wouldn’t people remind you of that from time to time?


And as for alienating himself in the arts community, well…while on the mainland at the age of 22 he was invited to teach poetry at Yu Wen University in Peking; in 1925 he and Chang Ta-ch’ien and other artists founded the Hsiao Han Painting Society in Shanghai; in 1926 he was recommended to be Chairman of the Department of Chinese Painting at the Shanghai School of Fine Arts, and also was invited to teach poetry at National Chi Nan University in Shanghai; during this time he was also invited to join the prestigious Chia Tzu Painting Society. In 1928 he was a founding member and assistant director of the China Fine Arts Institute in Shanghai….

In 1949 in Taiwan he became a founding member of the Seven Friends of Calligraphy and Painting Society, and the Painting Society of the Republic of China where he served as Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chairman of the Chinese Painting Committee.

He was also appointed member and judge for the National Art Exhibition Committee and National Painting and Calligraphy Exhibition Planning Committee; and was an Instructor at the Chinese Culture Institute in Taipei.

And in a January 1951 letter to Chang Hsueh-liang by Madame Chiang she writes, “The Generalissimo suggested that I take up painting as a kind of spiritual practice, so I invited Huang Chun-pi to teach me landscape painting and Cheng Man-ch’ing’s flower painting is unrivaled. The two of them are in no way inferior to Chang Ta-ch’ien and Hsu Pei-hung.”

(The above found in ‘Zheng Manqing’s Uncollected Writings…”trans. by Douglas Wile)


So it seems obvious from the above Ken, that Prof. Cheng was very much accepted and in the mix of the cultural and fine arts scene both on the mainland and in Taiwan.


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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Danny on Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:16 pm

johnwang wrote:When I trained Zimenquan, one of my Zimenquan brothers told me about a story between the Zimenquan master Xiong Jian Xun and CMC. Since it was only one side story, I' cannot prove it was 100% true or not. The story started as one of CMC's friends brought CMC to visit Xiong when Xiong was sick. CMC saw Xiong on his bed and told Xiong that he will need to train some Taiji in order to get in good health. This made the Zimenquan master Xiong very mad. Xiong got up from his bed and ... What happened after that is no longer important because both Xiong and CMC are no longer on this planet - 古今多少事盡付笑談中 (Gu Jin Duo Shau Shi Jin Fu Xiao Tan Zhong) - Many things happened in the past, it just becomes one of our fun discussion subject (we should not be too serious about it).



LOL! Agreed John!

The story above sounds just like Prof. Cheng! Like I said, he was probably knocked silly from time to time...

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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby jjy5016 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:58 pm

Just thought someone might find this interesting.

Liang recounted the story of his meeting with CMC to my teacher, who studied with him and played mah jong on Sunday afternoons for many a year.

Liang is supposed to have gone to Cheng and challenged him to see if he could push him over. When the professor's fingertips touched Liang's chest he changed the angle of his body by leaning forward so that if Cheng pushed harder it caused him pain and in effect neutralized the push.

Cheng supposedly gave up and they agreed to meet the next day. Cheng is said to have lost sleep over why he could not push Liang over. When they met the next day CMC used alternating pushes, what my teacher called a machine gun technique so that Liang could not recover and neutralize the professor as he did the previous day. Liang was pushed back and his elbow went through one of the paper sections on the outside wall of Cheng's home. They parted afterwards and seemed to have no animosity between them.

But.

Cheng never had the hole in the wall fixed and used to tell everyone that that's where the famous Liang Zhi Peng's elbow went throught the wall, which was a thorn in Liang's side for quite a while. Liang believed that Cheng was not a great fighter but never challenged him again.

FWIW


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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Andy_S on Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:41 am

Why did CMC journey to the West? I have read of a rather serious misdemeanour involving his son, though have no idea if there is any truth behind it at all.
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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:38 am

Again, as I said, neither you nor I nor Mr. Smith witnessed any such thing between Liang and Zhang Junfeng (and I am not even sure that it was the Liang Zipeng from Hong Kong, as the latter was not a mantis boxer). If there were witnesses to a match between Liang and Zheng Manqing, that is a separate issue. As I said (and as you should well know) had anything of the sort happened between Zhang Junfeng and Liang Zipeng it would not only have made the rounds, it would still be retold and exaggerated and debated to this day in Taiwan.

As for the rest....consider the source.
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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby RobP2 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:43 am

Andy_S wrote:Why did CMC journey to the West? I have read of a rather serious misdemeanour involving his son, though have no idea if there is any truth behind it at all.


I don't know though I did hear some stories when I was involved with the Yang Sau Cheung people about them planning to visit CMC in New York about his Yang family claims, I think one of the disciples, Gin Soon Chu or maybe Ip Tai Tak was being lined up to "kick school", I guess it would have been late 60s/early 70s
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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Danny on Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:20 am

jjy5016 wrote:Just thought someone might find this interesting.

Liang recounted the story of his meeting with CMC to my teacher, who studied with him and played mah jong on Sunday afternoons for many a year.

John



Hey John!

Long time no hear!


Thanks for the info from your teacher on this incident!

At least it now has been taken out of the realm of the "apocryphal" and placed squarely in the dustbin of ancient (but true) history!


Are you still in contact with Tom in Florida?

Please give me a PM whenever you can.


Take care,

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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Danny on Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:32 am

Andy_S wrote:Why did CMC journey to the West? I have read of a rather serious misdemeanour involving his son, though have no idea if there is any truth behind it at all.


Andy,

Prof. Cheng was invited by a Chinese Business Association in NYC to establish Chinese Culture Institute there.

Prof. Cheng's eldest son was no more than a mid-teen when the family moved to New York in the 1960's.

And the family freely traveled back to Taiwan quite often even after they moved here, so I doubt if there is any truth to that rumor.


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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Danny on Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:38 am

kenneth fish wrote: As I said (and as you should well know) had anything of the sort happened between Zhang Junfeng and Liang Zipeng it would not only have made the rounds, it would still be retold and exaggerated and debated to this day in Taiwan.


Ken,

That is the point! Mr. Smith WAS there when this story was making the rounds! That's why he heard about it!

And don't forget that he really liked Chang and wanted to study with him...


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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:47 am

Danny wrote:he really liked Chang and wanted to study with him...

Do you really think that Smith had any interest in learning CMA when he was in Taiwan?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:10 am

Danny:
Being a witness to an event, and being the transmitter of rumours are two very different things. One who transmits rumours (without labeling them as such) is at best guilty of poor judgment, at worst a rumourmonger or gossip.

I do not uncritically use superlatives regarding any teacher (including my own), nor do I relate events that I was not witness to without saying so. As for Mr. Smith's view of Master Zhang - in his book, Masters and Methods, he referred to master Zhang as being "gone in the kidneys". When I asked him about this over lunch at a deli in Bethesda, he said that he thought that master Zhang (who was in his late 50"s when Smith met him) was "not all there". I was shocked - first, that he should have made an evaluation of that sort based on a brief meeting with someone whom he could not communicate well with (Smith's Mandarin was rudimentary, Zhang's accent was thick enough to cut with a knife), and second that he would write something so derogatory about someone he "liked". I knew Master Zhang. He was always kinder to me than I deserved (I was a difficult teen). His mind was sharp and clear up until his death. His last few weeks were agonizing - he suffered greatly from acute pancreatitis secondary to poorly controlled diabetes. Still, he was mentally present to the end.
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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Fubo on Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:03 pm

RobP2 wrote:
I don't know though I did hear some stories when I was involved with the Yang Sau Cheung people about them planning to visit CMC in New York about his Yang family claims, I think one of the disciples, Gin Soon Chu or maybe Ip Tai Tak was being lined up to "kick school", I guess it would have been late 60s/early 70s


Yes, Ip Tai Tak told me that he was appointed to go for the reasons you mention... After which the comments about the Yang family claims were retracted and the issue was settled.
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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby neijia_boxer on Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:08 pm

If anyone in the DC metro area wants to test their skills at pushing there is always 'get togethers' in the area.
there is some very good push hands people there that are majority CMC style.

on sunday morning:

2009 Summer Tai Chi Practices in Carderock Park, Maryland



Location: CARDEROCK PARK, Clara Barton Parkway, MD

Schedule: Every Sunday morning, 8 a.m. to 10 a.m.,

June 14 through August 29, Free of Charge

Contact: Julian Chu



Direction to Carderock Park, MD:

-- From Maryland, take I-495 south toward Northern Virginia. Take Exit 41 (last exit in Maryland, prior to the American Legion Bridge) toward Carderock. This will put you on westbound Clara Barton Parkway.

-- From Virginia, take I-495 north toward Maryland. Get in the extreme right lane as you cross the American Legion Bridge into Maryland. This is an exit only lane for the Clara Barton Parkway (Exit 41). Caution: The exit ramp forks very soon after you exit. Take the left fork for Carderock. This will put you on westbound Clara Barton Parkway.

-- Once on Clara Barton Parkway, you may note that David Taylor Model Basin is on your right (the very long building). Take the first exit off the parkway, and make a left at the top of the ramp. Go straight ahead and, after passing under the canal through the tunnel, make a left at the Park Entrance. Parking is available on both sides after the entrance. After parking, walk to the picnic pavilion.
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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Danny on Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:40 pm

kenneth fish wrote:
I do not uncritically use superlatives regarding any teacher (including my own), nor do I relate events that I was not witness to without saying so. As for Mr. Smith's view of Master Zhang - in his book, Masters and Methods, he referred to master Zhang as being "gone in the kidneys". When I asked him about this over lunch at a deli in Bethesda, he said that he thought that master Zhang (who was in his late 50"s when Smith met him) was "not all there". I was shocked - first, that he should have made an evaluation of that sort based on a brief meeting with someone whom he could not communicate well with (Smith's Mandarin was rudimentary, Zhang's accent was thick enough to cut with a knife), and second that he would write something so derogatory about someone he "liked".



Ken,

I just finished speaking with Mr. Smith a few minutes ago and mentioned your named to him...

At first, he vaguely remembered you coming to a Saturday morning T'ai Chi practice at the YMCA in Bethesda, but then said, " Oh yeah, that guy...he wasn't that smitten with me...".

When I asked about your quote, he patently denied saying any such thing about Chang!

He DID go on to tell me some nice things about Chang, and still regrets that he never really had the chance to sample more of his Pa Kua and Hsing I...


Maybe YOUR memory of what he said at the Deli Den that Saturday morning is a bit faulty, or maybe you just misunderstood him…I remember the Deli Den as being quite noisy (T’ai Chi players tend to be quite gabby when they ‘re not practicing!) and not really conducive to a real conversation...


As to Mr. Smith's Mandarin…well, in November 1983 I roamed the streets of Taipei with Mr. Smith, and even though he was rusty, he could still operate pretty good in Mandarin wherever we went...


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Re: Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

Postby Danny on Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:11 pm

johnwang wrote:
Danny wrote:he really liked Chang and wanted to study with him...

Do you really think that Smith had any interest in learning CMA when he was in Taiwan?


Hello John,

I have no doubt about this!

Once when I mentioned to Mr. Smith about a Chinese friend who had studied at the Beijing Sport University (北京体育大学) and majored in Traditional Martial Arts, Mr. Smith responded wistfully…”I wish I could have majored in Martial Arts!”


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