the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

It is not throwing the ball that is hard but catching it may require some attention and aptitude

Heard that


Would add an interesting facet to this topic if some of the teachers here were to weigh in with their own experience/understanding of that gem you dropped

wayne hansen wrote:That is terrible
White crane drinks from saucer sums it all up
He breaks so many principles and his body is so disjointed
The name two fishes in the eight triagrams comes from one source only
Tseng Ju Pai and he substitutes pictures of his student for those of Yang because he dosent have photos of yang doing that posture
CMC has the double pull but it is not applied as a pull but as a double ward off

"Fishes in eight" I remember as the hand movements that I thought happened between single whip and fist under elbow but it's been a long ass time since I thought about that.

Edit: No, it is that section, here's Erle's published info on it.

This thread has me looking at the palm directions.

On a Bagua Palm tangent,
https://www.reddit.com/r/Baguazhang/com ... ame=iossmf
Temporarily (very) double palms face down.

Sun and Wu Hao single whip have an open hand AFAIK so perhaps some other cross over.

This is Yang Jwing Ming's version.
Here is his text and photos from 1982's "Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan"


And here is the same section of his form as described in 1999's "Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style: The Complete Form and Qigong"
Note the changes in the palms he made over 17 years. Also note the difference in his idea of the application as opposed to Erle's or Liang De Hua's. I think this reflects a more external understanding and question-and-answer technique approach to the movements and less of an internal conditioning (arm-waist-foot powered connection)






Question for whoever wants to answer:
Do you think these changes got him closer or further from authentic Taijiquan?

The Yang and CMC documentation isn't diverse enough to warrant sharing pictures unless anybody is curious. Might even could get some Dong family versions and the Adam Mizner, which is actually kind of similar to Yang Jwing Ming in that he is clear about the palms not being on the same plane.

On the bagua tangent, in the "Two fishes in Eight Angle Diagram," the two fish are the yin yang, the eight angles is the bagua diagram. The feet in SW also form a ba, btw. If someone uses a phrase like "yin yang" hands, that might make sense.

In general, there's always a yin yang relationship between the hands, in that they must work together harmoniously. However, imo/ime, that doesn't mean that both hands always have to face each other. An is a perfect example. As I said, watch GM Chang's hands.

The main takeaway for me is palm CHANGES, I suppose

I think Erle would have been the perfect teacher for you Ito
The last photo of YMJ shows a hard stylist imitating tai chi in a double weighted stance
Says it all

wayne hansen wrote:I think Erle would have been the perfect teacher for you Ito

Ouch?
Erle's taiji was my first exposure to any of it. Not that I put significant time into it, but it's what got me started. We emailed back and forth a bit in the early 2000s. He has a lot of great ideas. Love the stuff.

The last photo of YMJ shows a hard stylist imitating tai chi in a double weighted stance
Says it all

It's pretty evident in his material that he is not coming from a pure Yang background, but such a rich vein of ancillary information and practices to learn from.

Well that explaines a lot

You know it doesn't cost a thing to not be a dick to people.

origami_itto wrote:You know it doesn't cost a thing to not be a dick to people.

100%

have to agree with those two,

after the years of digging IMA topic, my conclusion about "THE FORM":
Changes in the forms are quite natural, connected directly with Master preferences
and character.
which one is better or worse?
Only a duel can be the judge

It’s a pity an ocean separates u and Erle is no longer with us it is a match made in heaven
Just because u think I am a dick it dosent negate what I say or make u any more correct just in agreeance

wiesiek wrote:have to agree with those two,

after the years of digging IMA topic, my conclusion about "THE FORM":
Changes in the forms are quite natural, connected directly with Master preferences
and character.
which one is better or worse?
Only a duel can be the judge

Someone (Wayne) finally suggests a practical avenue of exploration in

gerard wrote:...going deep rather than combat or purely form-based practice

to get away from the quibbling over form-based practice. And, as usual when something practical and readily practicable is dropped into a discussion here, it gets passed over and the quibbling continues. Even after an invitation for others to dig into that practical thing is given if for nothing else but to lend everyone participating in the discussion an opportunity to arrive at a common and unmistakably felt understanding of the thing.

Let the good times roll...