What are the PROs for punching in the air?

[baguaboy]

When I punch/kick in the thin air, or do my solo throwing drills, I just feel like I'm masturbating myself. There is always an empty and lonely feeling in my heart. When I punch on a heavy bag or throw my throwing dummy, I can feel that I'm doing something meaningful.

You should put some free form jazz music on in the gym next time and you wont feel so lonely!

Anyway - i think whats been missed in a lot of the criticism of 'air punching' is that a lot of CIMA form really relates to rou shou type practice. Solo form is a compendium of technique - memory tool, but it truly makes sense when you contact somebody (and struggle a bit). One can also refine spinal wave etc, crossing the body for power generation in the soft solo way with good results. E.G: I got a pretty good low kick developed from Gao bagua circle walking but i did do pad work too. The difference of adding the solo form I see when ever i do kicking practice with pads with Thai Boxer types etc i seem to get some approving looks... its my TKO move I kick waaay through the pad/leg.

What John says about retreating under pressure with good structure is so true. I think shadow boxing can help a bit here - but perhaps better still get a pad holder to chase your backwards as you defend.

In my experience structure building is a slow experience. Relaxation is key to it - so solo 'air punching' is supplemental way to drill the co-ordination with relaxation. I do think bag work is very important short cut to compounding the structure. To cut it out of training is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

P.S Mike Sigman uses a heavy bag in some of his videos. He's pretty good in my opinion so maybe he got something from it.

[Upyu]

Am I the only person that have this feeling? When I punch/kick in the thin air, or do my solo throwing drills, I just feel like I'm masturbating myself. There is always an empty and lonely feeling in my heart. When I punch on a heavy bag or throw my throwing dummy, I can feel that I'm doing something meaningful. The older that I'm, the stronger that I feel this way. When my arm hits on my opponent's arm, that kind of feeling make me very happy. Unfortunately I don't have any training partner in California at this moment.

I find it kinda ironic that Ark has said that punching the bag is self masturbation
Now anyone that's been to one of Ark's seminars probably has an idea that he can still move...in spades, and has plenty of power to boot...so why does he say hitting the bag is "self-masturbation?" Especially considering the fact that he used to train on the bag a-plenty when he was younger...?

Honestly its a question I mulled over myself for a while, which was cured by a little bit of ...gasp...practice.
Mostly it has to do with the fact that most people (and someone brought it up earlier), fail to recognize that the sensation of "hitting the bag harder" is actually more recoil going into the body. If you feel it "strongly" in the shoulder, chances are good that you're bleeding power (copping that phrase from bodywork...it's a nice expression) there.
And assuming you train yourself properly read the feedback that the bag is giving you, the bag in itself limits the number of movements that you can issue power from, not to mention that its stationary...
Pads are far better, at least, since they present a moving target, and nothing beats trying it out on a sparring partner.

Oh right...and since most of these so-called ima strikes have the small advantage of unbalancing an opponent on contact (that's separate from the power being generated), it's kind of hard to gauge how well this, let's call it trained force-skill, is affecting your opponent. At least in the pad, you can feel it connect to the other person's sternum, or deeper, and take their balance on point of contact, which is what, I've found at least , to be much more important than sheer power. Sure the "snap" of the suit/skin/qi/fascia whatever you want to call it is nice, and adds to the shock/power, but its the unbalancing aspect that's king...and I'm guessing was largely developed as an advantage that was key in weapons work. (You get unbalanced on first contact through any weapon, and you're through).

Which leads into the major detractor of the bag... it's hanging in the air. Most of the mechanics involving these trained-force-skills rely on someone standing on their two legs (or one leg, depending on the occasion ), which is something you can't replicate with a bag hanging in the air...the physics of a bag hanging in the air are simply too different from someone standing on two legs (and no, a wave master won't cut it either, and is worse ime mainly because they tend to have less solidity than a hanging bag. )

m2c

[cloudz]

The main reason I joined this board was to try to get people to think about what they do. Just because your teacher says, does not mean that you should follow blindly. There is a lot of conjecture and supposition in martial arts in general because the reality is there is a lot we do not know for certain. It is therefore all the more important that we weigh any advice or rules of thumb against things that are known.

I think about what I do everyday, have for the last 15 years of doing Bagua, trust me at this point the culmination of this practice is inside my own body. But in the beginning as I already said I've met and compared various teachers to one another, ones who have both stated they practice with opposite methods and as I said the results are plain to see.

I really question whether you understand the chain of movement from dantian to hand. I didn't say hitting a bag would cause someone to pull punches.

The mechanical chain needs to reach it's completion, if you did the strike full power into the air, then in order to practice the same move while hitting a bag you would want to have someone position it right at the ending point of your hand. This is not the case though, instead people position the bag so it's around the halfway point of the whole movement, this over time develops the body differently and more importantly the 'yi' in a different way.

If you did manage to position the bag so it's always right at the very end then you may as well not be hitting anything, in fact it would be safer to just 'strike into the air'.

.

I'm still not sure i follow.. Are you practicing to hit something or hit the air? If it is the former, then finding a way to hit something can only enhance your ability to hit something.

You know the point that you should keep or use the best form for your intended method and technique, should not have to be a point of discussion. It should be obvious.

Oh and let's not discount that a real opponent will not stand still for you and position themselves just so, so having some variety in what you can do and how you can strike won't kill you either... it will only make you stronger.

In my opinion

[cloudz]

Am I the only person that have this feeling? When I punch/kick in the thin air, or do my solo throwing drills, I just feel like I'm masturbating myself. There is always an empty and lonely feeling in my heart. When I punch on a heavy bag or throw my throwing dummy, I can feel that I'm doing something meaningful. The older that I'm, the stronger that I feel this way. When my arm hits on my opponent's arm, that kind of feeling make me very happy. Unfortunately I don't have any training partner in California at this moment.

I find it kinda ironic that Ark has said that punching the bag is self masturbation
Now anyone that's been to one of Ark's seminars probably has an idea that he can still move...in spades, and has plenty of power to boot...so why does he say hitting the bag is "self-masturbation?" Especially considering the fact that he used to train on the bag a-plenty when he was younger...?

Honestly its a question I mulled over myself for a while, which was cured by a little bit of ...gasp...practice.
Mostly it has to do with the fact that most people (and someone brought it up earlier), fail to recognize that the sensation of "hitting the bag harder" is actually more recoil going into the body. If you feel it "strongly" in the shoulder, chances are good that you're bleeding power (copping that phrase from bodywork...it's a nice expression) there.
And assuming you train yourself properly read the feedback that the bag is giving you, the bag in itself limits the number of movements that you can issue power from, not to mention that its stationary...
Pads are far better, at least, since they present a moving target, and nothing beats trying it out on a sparring partner.

Oh right...and since most of these so-called ima strikes have the small advantage of unbalancing an opponent on contact (that's separate from the power being generated), it's kind of hard to gauge how well this, let's call it trained force-skill, is affecting your opponent. At least in the pad, you can feel it connect to the other person's sternum, or deeper, and take their balance on point of contact, which is what, I've found at least , to be much more important than sheer power. Sure the "snap" of the suit/skin/qi/fascia whatever you want to call it is nice, and adds to the shock/power, but its the unbalancing aspect that's king...and I'm guessing was largely developed as an advantage that was key in weapons work. (You get unbalanced on first contact through any weapon, and you're through).

Which leads into the major detractor of the bag... it's hanging in the air. Most of the mechanics involving these trained-force-skills rely on someone standing on their two legs (or one leg, depending on the occasion ), which is something you can't replicate with a bag hanging in the air...the physics of a bag hanging in the air are simply too different from someone standing on two legs (and no, a wave master won't cut it either, and is worse ime mainly because they tend to have less solidity than a hanging bag. )

m2c

Well nothing may be as perfect as hitting another man if you want to learn to hit another man. But sometimes different tools give us different things to work with. A heavy bag is a great bit of kitt to train solo with and it's quite versatile, overthink it and this is what you get..

A fair attempt at throwing the baby out with the bathwater.. imo.

It's like NOT supposed to do everything and replace every other training method...

[Ian]

I find it kinda ironic that Ark has said that punching the bag is self masturbation

Pads are far better, at least, since they present a moving target, and nothing beats trying it out on a sparring partner.

Hi Rob,

As you know, I dabble in Aunkai (and other IMAs) - noob style.

So in Ark's opinion, is striking the pads also a waste of time?

[Ian]

no disrespect to anyone in this thread, but I think this is certainly relevant (an example of bag work not being detrimental to training*):





I'd rather fight most IMA guys than steve morris, tbh.

*if I'm not mistaken, that's what some of you guys are saying right?

[baguaboy]

yup and yup - done this with kind of training with Tony Felix - this is excellent use of bag - Morris does not do something unless its worth it.

I used to do circuits with side jumping over bags (as rest time) before sprawl and pound - builds ugly skill that works!

[baguaboy]

PS if you look at the top video example you can see that Mr Morris has the bag resting on the floor and hanging so it does not swing.

[cloudz]

a moving / swinging bag can be used to work some mobility with your striking. Slipping, circling, stepping combined with different hits, that sort of thing.

hardly the end of the world.

Long story short but I had a heavy angle bag on an an old swing set in the garden which I had to take down.. Now I use it for ground stuff - G & P, position drills. Also Picking it up and chucking it around.. versatile or what! I even manage to work some standing low ankle sweeps/ kicks, stomps as well as some knees.

[baguaboy]

hey george - i'm thinking of getting one in my garden - any brands (in u.k) to recommend for back a yard training?

[cloudz]

I got mine from Tao, they have an outlet in Green Lanes Haringay and near Stevenage. You can also find them on the net. I think it's one of their own branded ones. I've found it to be good quality.

Hold up.. Here we go
Third one down (click punchbag page) is the one I got. very happy with it mate.

http://www.taosport.co.uk/shop/equipment/index.htm

[D_Glenn]

"I freely admit I have no idea what a dantian is. It is as mysterious to me as Internal Power is to John Wang. I think I said already that yiquan does not discuss dantian.

What you did say very clearly, several times, was that striking a bag was wrong, very bad, you should never do it etc."

Actually in my mind it is wrong, but it's how many people practice and it does indeed train a power that is more than sufficient to hurt someone, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

What I am saying is that someone does not have to hit a bag in order to generate or train a power that can also hurt someone.

I am also saying that the resulting difference between the two methods is tangible.

Also I rarely hit or strike a bag but when I do I can hit it just as hard as someone who hits it everyday. I'd wager that I can hit a bag harder than you can.


"As for the rest I don't understand what you are talking about, except that you seem to be saying, in not so many words that, if someone gets inside your punching range you're toast."

No.

Seriously, we've been talking about Power Generation and training of the power through striking practices for 6 pages now.



"Looking at your video and following your line of reasoning it looks like you are practicing to hit someone a full head taller than you are. Also for what it's worth that fist you are using will get your fingers broken if you hit anything hard with them."

The video is 1:26 seconds long. Most people understand that somebody's whole entire martial practice doesn't fit into one minute and twenty-six seconds of a whole day.

Does that make sense?

.

[Upyu]

I find it kinda ironic that Ark has said that punching the bag is self masturbation

Pads are far better, at least, since they present a moving target, and nothing beats trying it out on a sparring partner.

Hi Rob,

As you know, I dabble in Aunkai (and other IMAs) - noob style.

So in Ark's opinion, is striking the pads also a waste of time?

Of course not, but like anything else, hitting pads just for the sake of hitting pads is a waste of time.
In a sense, holding the pads and teaching someone to move etc is an art in itself.

[D_Glenn]

Cloudz,

I really get the feeling that you didn't read the whole thread. What you quoted is a culmination of many previous posts. Rather than me re-writing everything I've already written in this thread it would be a lot easier if you would just go back and read it. I mean if it's no trouble, I would really appreciate that.

---

"I'm still not sure i follow.. Are you practicing to hit something or hit the air? If it is the former, then finding a way to hit something can only enhance your ability to hit something."

No. Not talking about that at all. All the previous posts were in regards to power generation and I was talking about it again in my last post.


"You know the point that you should keep or use the best form for your intended method and technique, should not have to be a point of discussion. It should be obvious."

I don't understand.


"Oh and let's not discount that a real opponent will not stand still for you and position themselves just so, so having some variety in what you can do and how you can strike won't kill you either... it will only make you stronger."

Uhhh yeah, reading my one post is out of context. Trust me here- no one is a complete and utter idiot, myself included. Again maybe read the whole thread. Thanks.


.

[C.J.Wang]

I think the issue here is not whether bag training is effective in deveoping striking power, but rather what kind of power and for what purpose/result.

For people with experience in styles that emphasize bag/pad training (eg.,boxing, kick boxing, muy thai, etc) who have also felt what good IMA guys can do, it should be obvious that the power that is produced and the effects are quite different. So if bags and pads were to be adopted as part of IMA training, it probably should be modified.