The tragedy of Tai Chi teaching

[Bao]

Following up the CXW thread with more general thoughts. Actually I started writing this post just one day before that thread was created, but I didn't have time to finish it then.

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -teaching/

[GrahamB]

Here's the solution:

[D_Glenn]

It's funny that you would use a quote about 許宣平 Xu Xuanping's martial art. The style of 三世七 Sanshiqi was/is actually more like Chen Taijiquan's Silk Reeling Exercises.

.

[Bao]

@Glenn. Silk reeling is a really good example of something that must be developed internally. You can't really just copy what you see.

[willie]

Following up the CXW thread with more general thoughts. Actually I started writing this post just one day before that thread was created, but I didn't have time to finish it then.

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -teaching/

Wow, You sound just like my first Yang style teacher. We did only one move at a time and learned
what it could do from anywhere. My yang style teacher was very odd. It was the theory's coupled
with good mechanics. The actual combative result was the transformation of yin and yang, Then later
broken down into trigrams or the five elements.

Good article.

[charles]

I don't think the issue is "creativity", or lack thereof, in the teaching method.

In most human pursuits, one starts by copying what has been previously done. That is true in mathematics, science, painting, music, etc. One doesn't, generally, create something from nothing. Instead, it is generally based upon a solid foundation of what others before us have done.

For example, Picasso was a well-trained classical artist prior to his "inventing" a different approach. He didn't go from finger painting to cubism. Somewhere along the way, he was taught drawing, form, perspective, color, shading... all of the things that go into painting.

Similarly, teaching in Taijiquan should include the foundation for the art. The issue in today's teaching isn't one of lack of creativity, but, rather, the lack of teachers effectively teaching the required foundation. Teachers are teaching empty choreography rather than the foundation. Once students have that foundation, they, like Picasso, can go on to be creative with that foundation.

[Bao]

Good article.

Thanks

I don't think the issue is "creativity", or lack thereof, in the teaching method.

In most human pursuits, one starts by copying what has been previously done. That is true in mathematics, science, painting, music, etc. One doesn't, generally, create something from nothing. Instead, it is generally based upon a solid foundation of what others before us have done.

For example, Picasso was a well-trained classical artist prior to his "inventing" a different approach. He didn't go from finger painting to cubism. Somewhere along the way, he was taught drawing, form, perspective, color, shading... all of the things that go into painting.

Similarly, teaching in Taijiquan should include the foundation for the art. The issue in today's teaching isn't one of lack of creativity, but, rather, the lack of teachers effectively teaching the required foundation. Teachers are teaching empty choreography rather than the foundation. Once students have that foundation, they, like Picasso, can go on to be creative with that foundation.

Foundation... That's definitely one problem. But personally I don't see it as a common teaching problem, more as a kind of degeneration of the art itself. Most people want the health and qigong aspect without eating bitter. The market has it's own demands.

Creativity... It was not technique that made Picasso creating his own style and his own world of painting. There was a whole bunch of gifted artists at that time who stuck within the world they were taught to live in.
Foundation alone won't make you a better fighter, you still need to act and improvise in the moment.
...Looking at foundation practice as something Absolute and perfect won't develop the art further. Spontaniety is IMHO the heart of TCMA, something very much the opposite to strict rules and absolute methods. So from my view, however I look at it, I come to the same conclusion.

[charles]

Creativity... It was not technique that made Picasso creating his own style and his own world of painting. There was a whole bunch of gifted artists at that time who stuck within the world they were taught to live in.
Foundation alone won't make you a better fighter, you still need to act and improvise in the moment.
...Looking at foundation practice as something Absolute and perfect won't develop the art further. Spontaniety is IMHO the heart of TCMA, something very much the opposite to strict rules and absolute methods. So from my view, however I look at it, I come to the same conclusion.

Particularly in today's high-tech world, a common question is how does one create an environment that fosters creativity and innovation? Are creativity and innovation inborn or a product on one's environment, or both? In other words, how does one go about teaching creativity or innovation: can they be taught? Or, is it just a question of removing the obstacles from those who are creative to let them be creative? Will creative people be creative regardless of the situation? (And non-creative people be non-creative?)

In my opinion, a good teacher is one who creates an environment that is specifically structured/designed to allow a student to learn something by "playing with" and experiencing that specific environment. The student then comes to understand that thing by their interaction with it - or not. Not every student will come away with something meaningful from the experience. Not every student is able to "play" with it beyond the basic rules or guidelines they are given. The same is true with Taijiquan, for example, forms and push hands: they are empty shells, or "experiences" into which the clever, creative student "plays", thereby understanding the parameters of the art. For a lot of people - and teachers - they remain empty, static shells. You can lead a horse to water...

[Bao]

Are creativity and innovation inborn or a product on one's environment, or both? In other words, how does one go about teaching creativity or innovation: can they be taught? Or, is it just a question of removing the obstacles from those who are creative to let them be creative? Will creative people be creative regardless of the situation? (And non-creative people be non-creative?)

The most important aspect of creativity in martial arts can be compared to how it's expressed in improvisation theatre. You need to let your mind stay blank and be in a state where anything can pop up. It's about how to react to circumstance. This state is what many different kind of artists, actors and even writers use to reach their creative zone. In chinese martial arts it's called "wuxin", no mind, and the Samurai translated this into "munnin", the state where they could be in the moment and react instantly to circumstance without thought.

So: You need to unlock the key to your imagination and enter The Creative Zone.

The key can be summed up with one single word: Emptiness.

[windwalker]

I feel all people learn and practice something to the level of their interest and goals.
Teachers need to earn a living while still trying to preserve what they feel they are part of.

Nor is an art otherwise something that can be easily passed down like money or a piece of furniture. It has to be earned with time, effort and sacrifice. Few today are truly willing to dedicate themselves to such a mission. To become something greater than themselves, and join in a tradition, a family, of martial artists, with respect to generations past and with hope in the new

https://sites.google.com/site/baguamawe ... ur-mission

Out side of the "tradition" it has to be shown to be something relative enough for someone to put in the time to get it.

Charles, mentioned about 4hrs of training a day...oddly enough my teacher also said the same thing he mentioned at lest 3hrs a day just to maintain ones skill set. Some students of my teacher once asked him how to get as good as him.

he said " come here everyday,practice 3hrs in the morning and 3hr in the evening for 20yrs and you might get it"
When I went there this was pretty much his routine rain, shine or snow,,,,,now at age 94 he does miss some days but for most of his life this
has been the way he practiced.

In the park when it rained, we would put the umbrellas in a tree just enough to stop the rain, we could practice standing exercise under them.
The winter time in Beijing is very cold, before class we would sweep the snow away from the practice area . Summers where just hot, humid.

People still had jobs and all the things that we have here, but somehow they made time for it, just part of the life style for them....

[dspyrido]

The biggest tragedy would have to be the removal of open sparring, real mind/body conditioning and testing in pursuit of feeling good, philosophy, culture, fame or whatever. When confronted with the prospect of pain many run away and do something that makes them think they are learning a martial art ... but are not.

Some though end up getting motivated to learn to avoid feeling pain which is a good way to spark the creativity process. It's pretty motivating to not want to be hurt.

[lazyboxer]

...

[lazyboxer]

Interesting article. It's an old dilemma, one that's been discussed for centuries in artistic and literary circles. How to cultivate the creative spirit while also respecting custom and tradition? One has eventually to move beyond mere acquisition of skill and technique. Many never do.

Fist Law follows the development of character, but whatever Confucius might have to say about the correct approach, there really isn't one. You must find out how for yourself and it will be painful. The way to realizing truth is chaotic and banal: gongfu is just a sign along the way. It won't make sense so don't stop to look unless you're tired and want to go home.

I'm old school and Lazy is my middle name. My teachers instructed me well how to enjoy my boredom whilst waiting for the change to happen. My indomitably irritating spirit is so mysterious and impossible that I was forced to love it.

America, where most of you are from, suffers from the sickness of pragmatism. This works well in many areas of life, but life is not all dollars and cents. Is anything left after the last TV has been sold and the nearest gas station is a billion miles away? Wait for it; it will come.

My race naturally loves and understands the violence and chaos of our historical reality. That's why we briefly conquered the world which refused to. How are you doing, America? Are you ready to be beaten? Someone may come soon to show you how.

That, friends, is Tai Chi.

[depth123]

It is unfortunate for practitioners such as myself who have developed internal skill that was passed down from generation to generation. I practice Practical Method Chen Style Taijiquan. My teacher Jeong won-il taught me as his teacher Fan de chen taught him. Fan de chen was taught by Hong junsheng. It is a dedicated practice that we are preserving so that it does not lose any inner meaning. We teach fundamentals from our circles. Thanks to Hong Junsheng, our form and movement is exactly how we practice our application. There is no deviation from the form and the application. So there is clarity in our art and we promote our students to copy our movements. Other styles have their own methods of teaching but we strive to get straight to the point. It takes dedication to practice and master it, and even harder so with all the convoluted information about the art that has been poisoning this art in the west as well as the east.

What convoluted information do I speak of? I may come up as controversial but it is that reason I speak out. It is a tragedy that our system and beloved art is reduced to opinion and not a general agreement which makes sense in terms of reality. We should not bring out the supernatural in this case of a very natural art. Which can be produced and replicated by human beings which we can generally all agree are part of the natural.

The question of Dantien and Qi usually comes up from beginner students and unfortunately some self proclaimed advance students.
Our practice do not press on our students about Daniten or Qi. There is not practical use. What is it to us that there might be a mystical ball moving around our stomach?
Qi never comes up in our classes, because it is hard to define Qi, and it has no benefit in the individual in the learning process of the art. I do not discount the existence of Qi or Dantien, but it is known in our style that it is not required. We leave that to the CM doctors and Qigong instructors. Please as serious practitioners, do not trust what you feel but see if your practice is bringing real results of skill. There are many who can live in dreamland.

The question of the posture.
My grandmaster told my master that we should stand tall like a model. Your spine should be straight. We warn our students that curving your spine excessively like an old man or a hunch back can be detrimental to your practice.

Our leg positions have a yin and a yang. But what does that mean? It only means that one side is the center(yang) and the other side is the place where it holds up the yang (yin). The yang is one block from the head to the front foot. The yin is the leg from the rear kua to the rear foot. The yins job is to hold up the body at an angle to hold up any outside pressure from an opponent. The yang job is to create a solid structure so that energy can transfer down to the yin. For example, a bar of steel against a corner will clearly transfer the force you put in from one end to the other. Now if you try it with a rubber stick and it bends from your force, we can conclude that the force you put in the end of the rubber stick lost a lot of energy in terms of how it transferred from one end the other other. That is why we keep the yang per say solid. The yins job is to then absorb the pressure coming in and use the built up pressure to bounce, neutralize, or strike the opponent. Why is the yin and yang only discussed in superficial terms of open and close? Who can decipher that? It needs to be explained as such and shown by a teacher who has the skill and understands proper body mechanics of taijiquan.

Suspended head, Contain the chest and pluck up the spine.
Suspended head means to keep your head up. Do not imagine your dangling from a string or such silly ideas that have no use for war. It means keep your head up.
Contain the chest and pluck up the spine does not mean to collapse the chest and pluck it up so you look like a hunch back. Contain a chest from my master's words is that it means to make your chest or upper torso into a container. Container of your organs inside. If you are collapsing your chest in, I would consult a medical professional and see if it is really beneficial to your heart and lungs. Please if anything listen to this advice. Do not collapse your chest.

Weight distribution
60/40 is the safe spot, but I would go far as to say its almost actually 50/50. But it can change according to how hard someone is pushing against you, and what angle they are coming from. Finding center is not finding the exact center but finding balance between the weight and the lever inside your body. If someone pushes you with immense force, you would not need to shift your weight. You will have all the pressure needed to fight back. If someone is attacking with weak force, the center and weight has to be shifted forward so that it will create the pressure required to fight back. This is a sophisticated art of balancing and intellect of body mechanics. This art isn't static and it is open to interpretation on how to use it with the basic skill set that was impressed on by a great teacher.

Silk Reeling.
Silk reeling is to change the opponents angle of attack without the opponent realizing. The turning of the bones and joints can create a push to the chest to them pushing downwards with just a slight turn of the arm. It is simple but sophisticated on how it can be used to create a better strategic position for you and a worse position for your opponent. That is why rotation is such an important skill in taijiquan.

These are many more things that i can talk about. If you would like to know more detail I am open to explain. It is an extreme tragedy of how the state of this art turned out to be. If there are any questions I am willing to discuss more tragedies I think are taking place by the people who in the first place promote it.

[wayne hansen]

At last a bit of common sence