If a then b is mainly in grappling sports?

[fuga]

Greg, we need to get together soon and train. PM me what your schedule is looking like over the next couple of weeks. I'll see if I can shake some time loose to come over to your gym. It's been far too long. The Fairyland Fight Club just ain't the same without you.

[CaliG]

Hi Pete,

It's a long drive to Brentwood.

I was actually thinking of visiting the Russians on Tuesday.

They've moved but they're just off of Geary. Maybe we can meet up there, get tossed around and get some Thai noodles after class.

Let me know if that works for you.

www.yosijudo.com

[fuga]

Tuesday's not good. The wife is out with ladies and I am in charge of the kid, who will be coloring or playing with dolls while I train. She shows up to the gym and even though she does not express a lot of interest in bjj, once a while she will jump onto the mat and start playing with purple belts and black belt. Her overunder seatbelt hold is unbreakable, basically like wearing a weighted vest during warm ups.

I always think of tackling that drive to Brentwood and then the reality of it always sets in. Are there any open mats over in Berkeley or Oakland where we could meet up?

Or perhaps another time with the Russians? I am sure they will have a good time with a new body to toss around, especially one under 150 pounds. I am interested in experiencing sambo.

-p

[CaliG]

Tuesday's not good. The wife is out with ladies and I am in charge of the kid, who will be coloring or playing with dolls while I train. She shows up to the gym and even though she does not express a lot of interest in bjj, once a while she will jump onto the mat and start playing with purple belts and black belt. Her overunder seatbelt hold is unbreakable, basically like wearing a weighted vest during warm ups.

I always think of tackling that drive to Brentwood and then the reality of it always sets in. Are there any open mats over in Berkeley or Oakland where we could meet up?

Or perhaps another time with the Russians? I am sure they will have a good time with a new body to toss around, especially one under 150 pounds. I am interested in experiencing sambo.

-p

No problem. I'll let you know the next time I get down there.

I don't get out of CoCo county very much but I am hoping to go to Yosi Judo or Cali Combat Sambo in the East Bay every once in awhile. I wish I could go more often but something is better than nothing and the things Gennady showed me were always well worth the drive.

Looking forward to meeting up again someday.

Btw, here's a taste of Russian judo. I just saw this vid and I love it.



G

[CaliG]

At my grappling gym we do way more sparring/ rolling than techniques (maybe 80/20), we teach drills when someone is having trouble with a particular position. Obviously this method is very coaching intensive, so everyone is trained to be a coach, and encouraged to coach during sparring

That's beautiful, TrainingDummy. Almost had a tear there for sec. Sounds like a cool gym

You can find situations like this in most garages.

I think it's fine if you're naturally a good grappler. But having been to schools this use this method I prefer schools that focus on technique and principles and I believe most people become more technical this way.

Yes jui-jitsu is about survival which you get from lots of rolling but it's also about knowledge which comes through endless instruction and drilling.

Just my opinion anyway...

[TrainingDummy]

You can find situations like this in most garages.

I think it's fine if you're naturally a good grappler. But having been to schools this use this method I prefer schools that focus on technique and principles and I believe most people become more technical this way.

Yes jui-jitsu is about survival which you get from lots of rolling but it's also about knowledge which comes through endless instruction and drilling.

Just my opinion anyway...

It's a rather large assumption that garage gyms don't focus on principals and technique. It's another large assumption that professional schools do.

The guys at my gym do extremely incremental sparring drills to increase skill. Simple stuff like rolling for positions, and getting good at it before rolling for submissions. We work the basics with strict attention to structure and alignment and the advanced stuff tends to present itself naturally. When one guy is having trouble with a particular position, say being pinned in side control, we stop free-form rolling and explore side control escapes and submissions for 5-10 minutes. We'll tend start doing more rolling starting from side control to ingrain the skill.

I personally don't compete because of previous injuries, but guys at my garage gym have competed at BJJ tournaments in Sydney and done just fine.

[CaliG]

It's a rather large assumption that garage gyms don't focus on principals and technique. It's another large assumption that professional schools do.

I'm sure you got some serious players at your gym. I've never said otherwise.

But you originally said you guys did 80% rolling/sparring and 20% technique, so from those numbers there was no reason for me to think you guys did isolation drills.

Again as I said some do very well in this type of set-up and that's how they used to do it Brazil. I've talked to Crosley Gracie at my gym about this and he said that in Brazil you basically roll and teach yourself. But the problem is some guys figure it out and some guys don't, he teaches is so everyone can get it.

So we focus a lot on techniques that are related. A doesn't work do B, etc... then work them in isolation and then we roll. But if you can't do the technique cleanly then there's not really any reason to move onto the next step (and the same is true for the isolation drills). I'd say we do 50% technique and 50% live training.

Btw, we just sent 5 of our guys to the US Open and 3 got golds. I'm sold on this method, CMA too is very logical in that you work on the basics and the jibengong before moving to free sparring, why should BJJ be any different?

Again I'm not really talking about winning or losing anyway as much as become more technical. A lot of guys are great at BJJ because of raw aggression, athleticism and strength but even less are great at BJJ because they are very technical fighters.

Just my 2 cents, people can train however they want to get what they want. I want to be more technical.

[everything]

as a beginner grappler I get both approaches by going to 2 classes - at judo ne waza, we tend to just roll a bit at the beginning of class. that is certainly good for many reasons. for one it is a lot more fun. I also become very aware I am missing pieces, which is fine, but I don't know how to fill them in and we don't have a lot of time to go into it as we are trying to get to the standup part for the main part of class. at bjj, we tend to do a -> b in a very detailed manner and almost no rolling in the beginner class. some times some light and very limited positional sparring. i'd love to do a bit of all that every class but there is not enough time.

I think I need the a->b stuff, but the most fun part for me is the same as in randori or push hands - the kuzushi, the neutralization, the borrowing force, etc. I enjoy trying to use any crossover body skill from judo and push hands but I agree it'd be great to get highly technical.

[CaliG]

I was just watching a Gokor vid.

He says it's all about combinations. If you know a technique and can apply it then you know it but that's not enough. You have to know combinations of techniques to be ready to fight.

So there you have it. Different people see things in different ways.

I'm under the impression with Gokor that his combinations aren't just A - B -C as much as variations of those techniques depending on what's available so instead it's A9 - B5 - C3 etc...

[everything]

ok thanks. the other day we worked basic flows of combinations, e.g., sweep triangle armbar triangle. to me I'm still at the a-b-c, but I guess after enough practice of these, the free flowing roll can happen and the a9-b5 just happens to be there and if you're good enough you can capitalize.

[CaliG]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.

That the truth lies somewhere in the middle. You want to be in the moment but also as you train over the years you want to develop your combinations, which should be easier anyway since you're timing gets better and better.

I know for me I'm better off focusing on timing and being in the moment for now.

[johnwang]

I don't think you can develop new skill by sparring only. You can't develop your "bowing throw", "leg lifting throw", "side kick", or "spin back kick" without solo drills or 2 men drills. You may be able to develop your jab, hook, upper cut from sparring only (can't prove this).

The sparring can only improve what you already know. It can't help you to develop something that you don't know. Maybe rolling only can develop your ground skill but I think it's an exception case and not the general case. May be the jab, hook, upper cut, and ground skill does not require to stretch certain muscle (used by leg lifting or spin back kick) or single leg balance (used by leg lifting).

[CaliG]

I don't think you can develop new skill by sparring only. You can't develop your "bowing throw", "leg lifting throw", "side kick", or "spin back kick" without solo drills or 2 men drills. You may be able to develop your jab, hook, upper cut from sparring only (can't prove this).

The sparring can only improve what you already know. It can't help you to develop something that you don't know. Maybe rolling only can develop your ground skill but I think it's an exception case and not the general case. May be the jab, hook, upper cut, and ground skill does not require to stretch certain muscle (used by leg lifting or spin back kick) or single leg balance (used by leg lifting).

I agree, to my mind too much sparring just builds up old habits. If you have good habits then you're fine if not then you probably want to focus more on technique.

At my school too the first 12 lessons don't involve any sparring, they just focus on the basics of grappling with an emphasis on position and hip movement. Even afterwards they don't have the new guys spar very much, they usually just watch. With time as they understand more and more they're expected to roll more and more (if they don't have any injuries of course).

Everything, you actually have a chance to test this theory of technique over sparring out for yourself. If your grappling improves from the BJJ classes where you don't spar against the Judo players who just roll then that would mean that technique first works for you. It could be a fun little experiment.

[everything]

hmm yeah. I'm pretty sure already learning more technique has helped my light newaza. At least when I roll, I have some new ideas in mind to try. darn, missed classes all week this past week. gotta see what happens next week.

[fuga]

In my school, beginners don't spar for several months. I think my first sparring wasn't until about 2 months in. Prior to that it was all about drilling the basic techniques with partners. Even in the classes where we spar, only one third of the class is dedicated to sparring (the other two thirds being conditioning and drilling technique).

Everything, those flow combination drills are golden. One we train often is armbar-triangle-omoplata with options throughout to go back to the previous one depending what's open. What's really good about those flow drills is that it engrains following where there is space (no resistance) versus just trying to muscle your technique on someone. Sometimes when we spar, my main goal for that session is to always be going towards where there is space (i.e., never try to muscle the technique but move towards where there is an opening, which is also a key strategy for defense - as seen by rolling into the armbar versus away from it.)

I love BJJ. It is such a great laboratory to play with all the IMA stuff I have learned. Just the other night, when I was fighting for grips with my training partner, I was playing with presenting structure and then dissolving it. (Of course, in the end, I still ended up tapping to his armbar)