How does boxing's evasive footwork differ from IMA?

[Ralteria]

Ideally the slipping of the punch allows for both the bridge AND your own angle set up. This is under the assumption that you are not backing up to slip the punch but moving left/right/forward/forward angle.

[blindsage]

The most efficient way to dodge is slipping your head left or right, only if your only goal is to dodge the punch. If you have other goals, and are trying to counter attack in the most efficent way, slipping just your head to the left or right may not be it.

[blindsage]

Double post...whoops.

[blindsage]

Ideally the slipping of the punch allows for both the bridge AND your own angle set up. This is under the assumption that you are not backing up to slip the punch but moving left/right/forward/forward angle.

Exactly. The main difference being in boxing you move to evade and set up angles for striking alone, in the IMAs you evade to set up angles until you make contact, via blocking, trapping, etc. and then use 'listening' skills to control and end the conflict.

[somatai]

"i've yet to see examples of slipping or weaving in tradition IMA forms, at least in the tai chi, bagua and yi chuan i've taken... generally your told to keep you spine erect and to lift your crown. or to keep your body like a bell and not let it ring. this of course would remove any possibility of slipping or weaving. i think the ima way of dealing with an attack would be to move (or rotate) your center and therefore move the target or deflect the punch. i don't think you have to stay rooted like a tree is rooted. you need to be able to move around as needed but always be in a position to generate power through your connection to the ground. you also don't need to keep your weight even over your foot. at least in yi chuan your taught to keep your weight on the ball of your foot which enables quicker foot work, not unlike what your taught in boxing."


these rules are for training to develop the body, not for usage, when you fight you do not hold on to such notions, you do what you need to do to take advantage of the situation, there are no rules regarding the body......the rules when followed during practice help to build a body that is adaptable, powerful and balanced for fighting, which has no set appearance or way of being.

[Alexander]

"i've yet to see examples of slipping or weaving in tradition IMA forms, at least in the tai chi, bagua and yi chuan i've taken... generally your told to keep you spine erect and to lift your crown. or to keep your body like a bell and not let it ring. this of course would remove any possibility of slipping or weaving. i think the ima way of dealing with an attack would be to move (or rotate) your center and therefore move the target or deflect the punch. i don't think you have to stay rooted like a tree is rooted. you need to be able to move around as needed but always be in a position to generate power through your connection to the ground. you also don't need to keep your weight even over your foot. at least in yi chuan your taught to keep your weight on the ball of your foot which enables quicker foot work, not unlike what your taught in boxing."


these rules are for training to develop the body, not for usage, when you fight you do not hold on to such notions, you do what you need to do to take advantage of the situation, there are no rules regarding the body......the rules when followed during practice help to build a body that is adaptable, powerful and balanced for fighting, which has no set appearance or way of being.

Well, at the same time, if you aren't maintaining proper structure you can't issue proper force from any position - which, in my limited experience, is one of the many goals of Bagua.

[Alexander]

The most efficient way to dodge is slipping your head left or right, only if your only goal is to dodge the punch. If you have other goals, and are trying to counter attack in the most efficent way, slipping just your head to the left or right may not be it.

I'm not talking about the whole she-bang. I'm talking about that one movement, Part A. First get out of the way (That's the most energy efficient way , e.g. fastest without any other plans..). And yes, you bring up a valid point, notably that you want to engage the person as soon as possible by bridging and then locking, trapping, throwing.

[somatai]

in mho proper structure is not a set thing it is a feeling built on relationship in your body as well as the others, when you are fighting you break the rules to win the fight, there is no value in doing something "technically" right if it keeps you from your objective, again however, the power, balance and awareness are all there from proper training. The rules of training are to develop the body in a particular fashion, not limit its expression. Think of any sport, there are technically sound ways to throw a football, but if the man is open and you are about to get hit, no one gives a shit about your form as long as you get the ball there.

[Alexander]

in mho proper structure is not a set thing it is a feeling built on relationship in your body as well as the others, when you are fighting you break the rules to win the fight, there is no value in doing something "technically" right if it keeps you from your objective, again however, the power, balance and awareness are all there from proper training. The rules of training are to develop the body in a particular fashion, not limit its expression. Think of any sport, there are technically sound ways to throw a football, but if the man is open and you are about to get hit, no one gives a shit about your form as long as you get the ball there.

Yeah I see what you're saying. But obviously if you can maintain your form and technique that is the best. We know this isn't always possible though, and winning a fight (living) certainly is of the highest importance.

[everything]

slight tangent:

Q: how does boxing's evasive footwork differ from traditional arts:

rewatch clips of Machida vs. Evans.

- You can see Evans dancing, bobbing, weaving, head-shifting like crazy, all to utter, useless, flowery effect.
- You can see Machida barely moving when he doesn't need to. when he moves, it counts, and it's not from head shifts.

[jpaton]

jpaton:

I think you have either misread or misunderstood my point (although what do I know - I trained at Gleason's gym as a kid, and Lord knows no one of any stature ever came out of there.....). In a boxing match, you are expected to engage and put pressure on (give chase to) the opponent - if you don't, the ref will tell you to get in and mix it up. I was not implying standing toe to toe and slugging it out. The art is in being evasive and controlling the angles while laying it on the opponent (Willie Pep was a great example).

As for ducking and weaving in your forms - well, for starters, look to the monkey set in your Xingyi.

sorry i thought you were trying to reduce the complexity of boxing to standing in a ring and exchanging punches. from my perceptive boxing is a 4000 (possible up to 7000) year old martial art that internal martial artists tend to trivialize as simple and brutal. but considering it has become the default for hand use in pretty much all combat sports it has more then proven it's effectiveness as well as an incredible ability to evolve and adapt.

[jpaton]

I don't know if the following (about 10 seconds in) would qualify as slipping and weaving as you describe it, but anyway have a look. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_JHvRKp6M

I can't speak for Bagua or Tai Chi, but I think of keeping your spine erect and lifting your crown as being more about consciously engaging certain muscles rather than literally trying to be upright if you get me.

yeah i thought about that (at least in the context of how i was taught to do yi chaun). and it just seems inherently different. the main reason i say this is because even though some of the motions may look the same a boxer does a lot of twisting, turning and bending of the spine without actually moving his center or if he does move his center the movement comes from the spine or head not the other way around. my understanding of yi chuan is that you want to expand or move your body together. eventhough Yao is kinda slipping or ducking his spine is still pretty erect and he has the whole contrary motion thing going on with his arms and center. boxers will actually bend completely over at the waist generally keeping their hands on either side of their face.

Generally i do see commonalities between how you generate power in yi chuan and boxing but the way boxers evade seems pretty different to me.

[blindsage]

sorry i thought you were trying to reduce the complexity of boxing to standing in a ring and exchanging punches. from my perceptive boxing is a 4000 (possible up to 7000) year old martial art that internal martial artists tend to trivialize as simple and brutal. but considering it has become the default for hand use in pretty much all combat sports it has more then proven it's effectiveness as well as an incredible ability to evolve and adapt.

I am not, and would not ever trivialize the well developed skills of boxing, but it terms of being able to adapt and evolve you are right on, including for the use of gloves. Contemporary boxing is a very different animal than boxing prior to the adoption of the Queensbury rules and prior rules systems and the use of gloves. Contemporary boxing, with it's current fighting methodology, strategies, style of movement and style of striking has been developed, for the ring, over the last 200 years. If you think boxers were fighting like the do now 300 years ago, let alone 3000 or 4000 years ago, you are misinformed.

[Alexander]

sorry i thought you were trying to reduce the complexity of boxing to standing in a ring and exchanging punches. from my perceptive boxing is a 4000 (possible up to 7000) year old martial art that internal martial artists tend to trivialize as simple and brutal. but considering it has become the default for hand use in pretty much all combat sports it has more then proven it's effectiveness as well as an incredible ability to evolve and adapt.

I am not, and would not ever trivialize the well developed skills of boxing, but it terms of being able to adapt and evolve you are right on, including for the use of gloves. Contemporary boxing is a very different animal than boxing prior to the adoption of the Queensbury rules and prior rules systems and the use of gloves. Contemporary boxing, with it's current fighting methodology, strategies, style of movement and style of striking has been developed, for the ring, over the last 200 years. If you think boxers were fighting like the do now 300 years ago, let alone 3000 or 4000 years ago, you are misinformed.

My dad used to be a semi-pro boxer and, If i recall correctly, he said that 100 years ago guys used to go bareknuckle 100 rounds.

[everything]

sorry i thought you were trying to reduce the complexity of boxing to standing in a ring and exchanging punches. from my perceptive boxing is a 4000 (possible up to 7000) year old martial art that internal martial artists tend to trivialize as simple and brutal. but considering it has become the default for hand use in pretty much all combat sports it has more then proven it's effectiveness as well as an incredible ability to evolve and adapt.

I am not, and would not ever trivialize the well developed skills of boxing, but it terms of being able to adapt and evolve you are right on, including for the use of gloves. Contemporary boxing is a very different animal than boxing prior to the adoption of the Queensbury rules and prior rules systems and the use of gloves. Contemporary boxing, with it's current fighting methodology, strategies, style of movement and style of striking has been developed, for the ring, over the last 200 years. If you think boxers were fighting like the do now 300 years ago, let alone 3000 or 4000 years ago, you are misinformed.

My dad used to be a semi-pro boxer and, If i recall correctly, he said that 100 years ago guys used to go bareknuckle 100 rounds.

there were some comments on other threads about the sport and favored techniques changing quite a bit due to adding gloves, different rules, etc. different rules obviously change the favored techniques. I still say look at Machida vs. Evans for a stark contrast. You can say it's the fighter sure but the footwork used was very, very different. Skipping in vs. moving in definitively.