Form Transmission and Mistakes

[DeusTrismegistus]

So a discussion in another thread/forum with LF and a back kick has got me wondering about form transmission and mistakes.

If someone does a form "wrong", or thinks that a move is something other than what it really is, then most people are quick to say, "He must have been taught wrong". That is really only one possible explanation though. What I have seen many times since I have been helping my teacher by helping him teach forms is that people mess things up. To elaborate I can show someone how to do a move like an upward block. Sometimes they get it and start doing it correctly. More often they do it wrong, I show them again, they still do it wrong but a little better, then I show them again, ad infinitum until I decide this is going no where and move on. The goal is to learn a form, not perfect an upward block. So a person may learn a form with many mistakes in how particular moves are done, while maintaining the overall body movements. Over time we practice and improve and our movements should get closer to the ideal which most of us view as the way our teacher does the form/movement. However at least half of the people who get it right initially, are doing it wrong within 2 weeks. Of at least half the people that improved but were still not doing the movement well, many times they revert back to how they started doing the movement, which was pretty poorly.

So people can be shown, taught, and instructed to do something one way, and actually be doing it another. The worst part about this is if they have been doing it for a long time they will almost always be adamant that they ARE doing it exactly as they were instructed. The teacher may or may not notice but often will not make many detail changes unless the student asks about the movement. What amazes me about this situation is that a class can be doing the same form, and everyone have fairly significant differences in the form, and each will insist that they are doing it exactly as instructed; and usually none of the students forms look like their teachers form.

Then there is miscommunications that occur even between native speakers of the same tongue. The teacher may say to stick your foot out LIKE you are kicking but you are only stepping, and a student take that to mean that you stick your foot out and kick.

I think there are several reasons why people cannot seem to learn something right the first time, and why people tend to change what they are doing over time. In martial arts we are really learning how to use our bodies. We have to learn how to see a teacher do something, and then do it the same. The movements are often complex and require coordination between parts of the body that aren't used together often in normal daily activity. This is a specific type of learning and when someone is unfamiliar with form work they often have trouble. So I would say all of us when we first learned something like slanting fly, or beng chuan, were doing it wrong to greater or lesser degrees. If a person learns how to do simple movements like, stepping, reverse punch, thrust kick, roundhouse kick, by themselves, then they are beginning to learn how to learn forms. Then when they see a more complicated movement they might be familiar with certain parts of it and can focus on more detail. So when people start learning martial arts our ability to see what someone else is doing is limited. As such if we are shown too much too fast, we will only get the overall shape or movement. Since we haven't developed the skill of learning forms, we think that all we were able to see and recognize and mimick was all there was to see. Then later the teacher will show us something about that move or movement and we may think and tell others that "he showed me something new about this move," when actually what you were shown was always there, you just couldn't see and recognize it.

The reason things get changed over time is related. Since when we begin learning martial arts we haven't developed our eye yet we cannot see what corrections someone may be making with us. We may think to ourselves, "thats how I WAS doing it." If we cannot see what they moved or changed then when we practie we will not be able to duplicate it. Also when we learn a form we may be shown some of the detail of the movements at the same time, however we are focused on remembering the overall form. If I can barely remember what comes after upward block then how am I going to remember where to align my block or what angle my arm should be or how I should hold my wrist? So people focus on the overall large motions and cannot remember the detail. The detail is then added over time, but only after you can remember the overall form like you know your phone number, then can you really focus on the detail. However some people, I think the majority of people in schools I have seen, merely go through the motions when they do forms. They think, whether they are aware of it or not, that the overt motions are all that they need to know or all that is important, they may constantly focus on doing the right move next, instead of shifting focus onto HOW each move should be done.

Hopefully as we train we get better at learning. We should hopefully get to the point where we can see and remember the overall motions and some of the detail, we should be able to pick up movements quicker than before. We should hopefully reach a point that when we are shown a movement, we can do it as our teacher has shown, without introducing unintentional errors and mistakes.

[mixjourneyman]

One of the best ways to fix your form is to look at pictures of old masters from your lineage and compare the shape of your body to theirs.
The other way is to ask your teacher about every movement, no matter how small and inconsequential it may seem. If your teacher has the goods, they can teach you the goods, assuming that they want to.

[cdobe]

One of the best ways to fix your form is to look at pictures of old masters from your lineage and compare the shape of your body to theirs.

Your teacher's body shape is quite different from yours. You need to fix this

[DeusTrismegistus]

One of the best ways to fix your form is to look at pictures of old masters from your lineage and compare the shape of your body to theirs.

Your teacher's body shape is quite different from yours. You need to fix this

lol

[strawdog]

OUCH!

[Plante]

One of the best ways to fix your form is to look at pictures of old masters from your lineage and compare the shape of your body to theirs.

Pictures are snapshots. They represent only one day in the continuous evolution of the comprehension of that old master in a certain angle, etc. Yes you can compare with pictures, but better is to practice what your teacher tells you to do. If you do it, it works. If you don't, it doesn't work.

[DeusTrismegistus]

One of the best ways to fix your form is to look at pictures of old masters from your lineage and compare the shape of your body to theirs.

Pictures are snapshots. They represent only one day in the continuous evolution of the comprehension of that old master in a certain angle, etc. Yes you can compare with pictures, but better is to practice what your teacher tells you to do. If you do it, it works. If you don't, it doesn't work.

But the evry issue that I tried to broach was that you may not actually be doing what your teacher told you to do, even if you think you are

[Plante]

I totally agree. I think of that as layers. You just add layers of knowlegde through training. But to get the second layer, you have to train en embody the first. That'S why looking at pictures don't get you far, you have to go layers by layers and only with the guiding of a competent teacher.

[C.J.Wang]

My teacher told me this funny story that happaned when he learned Northern Shaolin in college. His teacher was very traditional and would often only show a certain move two, three times at the most. It was then up to the students to try their best to reproduce what they had just seen from memory and practice it over and over.

One day, just before the end of the class, the teacher showed a new move where he flicked the right hand in front of his eyes before punching with his left. He was in a hurry to leave and only demonstrated once. My teacher and his classmates then got together, practicing the "flick" repeatedly and discussing among themselves what could be the possible applications for it.

The next morning the teacher showed up and saw everyone doing the "flick" before throwing the left punch.

"Who told you guys to do that?"
"You did!"
"What? There no flick of the hand in the form! I was just trying to shoo a fly away!"

Then everybody burst into laughters.

[mixjourneyman]

One of the best ways to fix your form is to look at pictures of old masters from your lineage and compare the shape of your body to theirs.

Your teacher's body shape is quite different from yours. You need to fix this

In the immortal words of Wessly Willis "I'm sorry that I got fat, I will slim down".

If by slim down you mean go eat a tub of ice cream while crying into my hands, then yes, yes that is what I will do.

[Royal Dragon]

Work on the combat moves of each and very technique in the form. You will HAVE to get it right, or the technique will fail.

[Plante]

Work on the combat moves of each and very technique in the form. You will HAVE to get it right, or the technique will fail.

My opinion is that you have to learn the techniques individually and then learn the form. It makes learning it faster and easier since you know what power to use, what intent, what it is for. Forms are mostly for demonstration or to practice the techniques in a sequence easy to remember.

[mixjourneyman]

Work on the combat moves of each and very technique in the form. You will HAVE to get it right, or the technique will fail.

My opinion is that you have to learn the techniques individually and then learn the form. It makes learning it faster and easier since you know what power to use, what intent, what it is for. Forms are mostly for demonstration or to practice the techniques in a sequence easy to remember.

Nice!
Very practical

[wuwei]

The movements in XYQ are so simple (relatively speaking) that anyone with a decent intelligence will be able to "copy" the correct outer appearance in a short time but they will never ever take on the quality of being "correct" without putting the years of hard work to develop the gong and jings behind those movements. So I would say for a novice the movements will never appear correct no matter what method of transmission.

[Plante]

Thats why forms are more advanced stuff and no beginner material.