Liu He Ba Fa Versus Tai Chi Quan

[SnowLeopard]

Are there any known events in history of interaction between experts of these styles? If so, what was the outcome in general?
Even if there was no sparring involved (let alone fighting), it would be interesting to know the opinion of the masters so Grand ultimate fists about this little known style, which seems to be equally profound.

[meeks]

there's been a few documented incidents. In general, the taiji guys complained about the LHBF guys 'breaking their bow' because they kept moving their shoulders and that their shit wasn't internal and the LHBF guys wined that the TJ guys' lineage sucked and didn't have enough qi.


*couldn't resist*

[SnowLeopard]

By the way, I have another question which I would like to ask without opening a separate thread due to its trivial nature. Why is a certain movement of Tai Chi called "Buddha's warrior pounds mortar"?

[Ron Panunto]

By the way, I have another question which I would like to ask without opening a separate thread due to its trivial nature. Why is a certain movement of Tai Chi called "Buddha's warrior pounds mortar"?

The Buddha's attendant warriors were legendary temple guards. The posture movement (from Chenjia) has the right fist pounding into the left palm, which is similar to how to how an hebalist or pharmacist uses a mortar and pestle to grind drugs into powder.

[Din]

I have a book that translates "Buddha's attendant pounds the mortar" as "King Kong nailed fist". Clearly, a profound translation. "Now, allow the chi to sink to Dantien. Ok, now, pretend you're king kong..".

[drifting]

I think quite many students of Wu Yi Hui studied Taiji. One famous one was Tao Ping Xiang who was famous for teaching the Liuhebafa he learned from Wu and the Taiji he learned from Cheng Man Ching.

This video shows him demonstrating his skill, which I would say is quite good. Unfortunately its hard to watch what hes doing with the attention-drawing performance from the opponents.


But there were many others such as Zhang Chang Xin, Jiang Rong Qiao, Liang Zhi Peng, etc. If your asking about combat stories then Im not sure of any from the old generation, but probably there was.

[Chris McKinley]

That sad old clip again? Why purposefully post this and make the old guy look bad again?

[drifting]

Hey, if that clip was posted here before I assure you I didnt know, and only chose that because he was showing movements and not a form. I wasnt trying to make him look bad either as I honestly thing he showed skills in that clip. My true feeling is that Tao showed a clean version of Liuhebafa from Wu and definitely had skills, whether it was from the Taiji or the Liuhebafa I dont know.

[Ron Panunto]

I have a book that translates "Buddha's attendant pounds the mortar" as "King Kong nailed fist". Clearly, a profound translation. "Now, allow the chi to sink to Dantien. Ok, now, pretend you're king kong..".

Yeah, I think that was Jou Tsung Hwa who translated it that way, however, he was not referring to the big monkey.

[bailewen]

I have a book that translates "Buddha's attendant pounds the mortar" as "King Kong nailed fist". Clearly, a profound translation. "Now, allow the chi to sink to Dantien. Ok, now, pretend you're king kong..".

This is because the original term is "jin gang"/金刚 which is neither a "budda's attendant" not "King Kong" but rather a very specific sort of demi-god or ascended being in Buddhist mythology. Sort of a little like an Asura, very fierce and warrior looking. When you enter a temple in China and you see those statues of crazy wild eyed dudes at the doorways, those are typically "jin gang". It's even the same term translated as "diamond" in "The Diamond Sutra". Sometimes the concept has to do with invincibility which is where the "diamond" idea comes from. It's like, uh, the hardest substance on earth. It got called "King Kong" because when the movie King Kong came out a few years back, that's what they called him in Chinese just because, you know, it sounded kind of similar and the term means a big giant invincible warrior so it made sense.

If you really want to know what it means though, you need to talk to someone up on Buddhism as the term is pretty contextually specific and has no real English equivalent. I expect there is a pretty precise term to be found in Indian literature though.

p.s. just looked it up. It's a "vajra".

[Shanghaijay]

It is always the MAN and not the style.

And the winner can change on any given day.

Jay

[Josealb]

But there were many others such as Zhang Chang Xin, Jiang Rong Qiao, Liang Zhi Peng, etc. If your asking about combat stories then Im not sure of any from the old generation, but probably there was.

Hello Drift, do you mean to say that Jiang Rong Qiao learned LHBF? If thats what you meant, its the first time i read about it. Is there any website, or can you tell me any further detail regarding this?

Edit: Nevermind. Found material...
http://www.liuhebafachuan.com/Liuhebafa%20Chuan%20forward%20by%20Jiang%20Rong%20Qiao.pdf

Its really odd how i missed this, considering Jiang was one of my teacher's teachers.

[drifting]

Yes, Jiang Rong Qiao did learn Liuhebafa from Wu, and then later furthered that study in an exchange with Chen Yi Ren. We suspect that there was more than a little influence from LHBF on Jiang's style, but honestly its just speculation.

Jiang was one of your teachers teachers... do you train one of his styles? If you brought it up on another thread Im sure very much information would arise as so much of the story exists fragmented with many people holding different pieces of it!

[SnowLeopard]

Thank you all for the answers.

If it is Vajra that is referred to by "Jingang", then the translation of "Buddha's warrior attendant" seems to be apt as Vajrasattva is a kind of a diamond being in Buddhist mythology who protects Buddhism.

Regarding Jiang Rong Qiao's comments about Liuhebafa, I find it interesting that Wu Yi Hui's hometown had many practitioners of this style. It would be interesting to find their descendants who still carry at least some remnants of the style to this day...
Perhaps what made Wu Yi Hui so superior, as in JRQ's own words, compared to other LHBF practitioners was the additional teaching he received from that unknown teacher from the Kaun Yin Temple.

In any case, it would have been great if these two styles had greater interaction.

[Wanderingdragon]

It is unfortunate that among all of the internal stylists, of all the martial Artists, of all the fighters on this forum, no one recognizes that every style follows the same prnciples. Head above shoulders, waist holding center, feet pushing movement, head moves, body moves, head stops, body stops, no balance, no power, it is the human condition. Each of these ideas can be tested and proven, they do not change. That said, the superior Art, is the art with superior structure, the superior structure is all in the hands of the practitioner.