Liu He Ba Fa Versus Tai Chi Quan

[cerebus]

It is unfortunate that among all of the internal stylists, of all the martial Artists, of all the fighters on this forum, no one recognizes that every style follows the same prnciples... That said, the superior Art, is the art with superior structure, the superior structure is all in the hands of the practitioner.

Well... yeah, it WOULD be sad if that was the case. But how you came to such a sweeping conclusion based on basically NO information is really beyond my own comprehension...

[Josealb]

Drift,

I only know two things, and one i only knew recently. One, is that Jiang learned LHBF from Chen, and that he did this after having allot of experience in his previous arts. Two, my teacher never mentioned this, or learned any of it, what i mean is that when you think LHBF you dont think of Jiang Rong Qiao...he wasnt a known "LHBF guy". So, what i can understand of this is that it was a very personal thing to him, friending Chen Yi Ren and getting to understand that it was indeed a unique art, and learning it. If he started his LHBF journey in his late life, theres a big chance that he never got the chance to pass it on normally, because of health reasons (he went blind), or because he couldnt get a hold on the complete system.

You already explained that he wanted to pass it on, but life got in the way. My teacher only received his Bagua.

[drifting]

Thanks Josealb, and your right about Jiang not being known as a Liuhebafa guy. As he never taught the art he wouldnt have been associated with it unless though Liuhebafa people who know that little piece of his history. Jiang worked with Wu at Nanjing which is where I assume he learned his Liuhebafa. As Wu never allowed a non-disciple to learn beyond the 1st half of the Liuhebafa public form Zhu Ji, it wasnt until Jiang met Chen Yi Ren that he had a chance to go further. Chen learned Jiang's old system of Bagua and passed that down to a couple of his followers near the end of his life, and we still maintain that Bagua beside our Liuhebafa under Chen.

Is the Bagua you learned in your lineage just a single form (as most out there), or is there more beyond that?

Here is an interesting piece on Jiang's Bagua:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Style_Baguazhang

[Wanderingdragon]

[quote="cerebus"][quote="Wanderingdragon"]It is unfortunate that among all of the internal stylists, of all the martial Artists, of all the fighters on this forum, no one recognizes that every style follows the same prnciples... That said, the superior Art, is the art with superior structure, the superior structure is all in the hands of the practitioner.[/quote]

Well... yeah, it WOULD be sad if that was the case. But how you came to such a sweeping conclusion based on basically NO information is really beyond my own comprehension... [/quote]

It's a simple observation, after following numerous threads on this forum over time, comparing one art with another, I've heard no one make mention of the basic principles of IMA the rules of Tai Chi, Head Up, Shoulders Down... the simplicities of our humanness Two arms Two legs, a head. I know it was a big sweeping statement but it was meant to give everyone pause to think... why do I look like a kickboxer when I fight ? Why can average joes take me down with ease? How could he with stand my mighty blows of internal enormity? cerebus, when you fight , I'm pretty sure you recognize your mistakes as they happen, BECAUSE you fight, And I'd be willing to bet in your training and after thoughts they all go back to the rules of structure ... hand and foot , follow, give and take. No one recognizes that every style follows the same principles, is simply an honesty that eliminates "my style is better than yours". Now just to give you some S@*t, The one thing that no one really does realize, is that Liu He Pa Fa is an unbeatable art!!!

[Patrick]

Hey at least me noobie tried to say that a dozen times

[drifting]

The one thing that no one really does realize, is that Liu He Pa Fa is an unbeatable art!!!

Im sorry Dragon but I must disagree. Liuhebafa is nothing in the hands of someone who hasnt properly trained it and doesnt fully comprehend it. Many Liuhebafa practitioners boast that they are capable of the skills of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua, but those styles are not capable of Liuhebafa... that is putting unfair restrictions on those styles and making untrue exaggerations about Liuhebafa too. Does anyone know the depths and limits of Taiji or Xingyi or Bagua? I think not. Nor have I met Liuhebafa practitioners who truly understand what those arts (not to mention their own art) are about under the surface.

Liuhebafa will make its own name, not at the expense of belittling other arts. Any style has the full potential of going the length, with the only limitations being the physical and mental ability of the practitioner. A science must be humble.

The art means nothing, it is up to the practitioner in the end!

No one recognizes that every style follows the same principles, is simply an honesty that eliminates "my style is better than yours".

I know what your trying to say here and you are right, however you are also overgeneralizing. I saw that you were trying to get people to stop and think by saying that which is commendable. The problem is that its hard to put into words what you are trying to get across, which I know as Ive tried the same too. However,every human can live and breath because they share the same organs or skeletal systems, the same muscle functions, the same biological and physiological constructs... but human anatomy aside we are not the same. These styles follow the same logic, that mechanically they are practically identical due to physics, but they each diverge at a certain point in terms of their theory and methodology which makes them unique.

Dragon, I hope you can see that when I answer or comment that Im addressing everyone. Very little of that, or other things Ive posted in the past for that matter, was directed just at you. It was what was said that Im responding to because others have said the same or similar things in the past.

[Wanderingdragon]

Don't worry Drift, I understand, when i said this art is unbeatable, I was just teasing the guy I was responding to, but what I don't understand is that you don't know that LHPF, by design, is absolutely bullet proof. True every other art in the right hand is unbeatable, but LHPF is the only art that is of its self unbeatable, it is an art that one aspires to know completely because it will make you invincible, kind of like Ironman letting you wear his suit, if you use it right, you are every bit as powerful as ironman, if not, the suit can hurt you. The trick is learning how to use it right, just the opening move, with your hands above your head, knowing the first most basic precept of LHPF you are covered and untouchable, if you know why you probably understand this art, if you don't ...well it's just a history course then.

[Strange]

I KNOW AM LHBF

[Josealb]

Is the Bagua you learned in your lineage just a single form (as most out there), or is there more beyond that?

Here is an interesting piece on Jiang's Bagua:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Style_Baguazhang

My teacher learned the old Bagua, when Jiang was in good shape still. He got sent there by his other teacher and friend of Jiang, Dong Zi Ying. Still, his main art, his bread and butter, was and is xingyiquan...and thats what i got. He told me once, while i was watching one of his private bagua students..."Bagua is a very beautiful art, but xingyi is for fighting."

Im learning Zhaobao now, and because of it i think my eyes are a bit more tuned to details...thats why i find myself liking LHBF more and more.

[drifting]

Thanks Josealb, and may I say you are fortunate to learn Jiang's Xingyi, as Ive experienced it and though different from my own I found great depth there. It is a pity that your teacher didnt follow the Bagua beyond Lao Bazhang. Jiang's system of Bagua is quite interesting but fragmented among its descendants as Ive mentioned.

Has your teacher shared any stories about Jiang with you?

[Din]

I was off topic before, and am even more so now, but Ron and Bailewen, you guys know your stuff. The book in question is one of my current favorites (he states that diligent reverse breathing practice will turn me into a tiger with wings. Upon achieving this, I plan to flying bite my obstacles into submission). You guys are mad astute.

[Josealb]

Jiang was a bit of a scholarly guy no? ive never heard any stories of him fighting or displaying skill on purpose. I may be wrong here.

[drifting]

Your right about Jiang. He wasnt known for his fights and it was never reported whether or not he ever did have any fights... he was known for writing books! However, Jiang produced a very intelligent system of Bagua and had a superior understanding of martial mechanics and power development. Whatever was a product of his numerous teachers I cant say but I do know he had very many original methods and had some clear insight into martial requirements. I bring this up because its hard to comprehend martial arts from theory alone, he must have had contact experience of a certain degree at least in order to have developed what he had.

[Wanderingdragon]

The "trick " to learning to use LHPF for fighting is in it's total simplicity , though it's form looks and is quite complicated, this is because it is so completely thought out ,every technique, completely covers the exposure created by the previous. I have alluded to one of LHPF's most important precepts, although I did not offer it up , it is a very simple rule of fighting, "know yourself", I mentioned the opening move of the form demonstrates this idea most simply , as your hands are raised over your head having parried whatever, what do you know , you know everything that is open which in turn means you know your opponents next obvious intent, a strike somewhere below your defenses, well of course the next move covers that, and this is the way the form is designed throughout. Again simple and not so simple as you must be comfortable enough to realize never any tension lest you will find it hard to change, basic internals concepts no? The "trick" again is in the foundation, perfection of structure , which by the way is the nature of Yiquan, but also in LHPF it's foundation is total understanding of the technique, of which there is only one, every touch should affect you opponents ability to move. Why did Master Wang want his students to study LHPF? I could only guess, to short cut the years of technique and skill in Xing I among other arts, he had under his belt before evolving to "no technique", LHPF's twelve Animals alone offers a foundation to develop great fighting skills, especially under the master tutalage of one such as Master Wang, they can be seen in some of todays better presentations of the health dance. Why was it said that LHPF people could not fight? Again I will only guess, from my own experience, I have been able to fight, but from my own abilities, I have just in recent years become comfortable fighting using LHPF, because I know how it works now, it is not about using the techniques, but about knowing the skills that allow the technique. Again this is not foreign to IMA, it is not unique to LHPF, yet LHPF is still an unknown entity in the MA world today, but the great LHPF men are highly reputable, with well documented skills. My teacher years ago,mentioned his teachers fear that this was a dieing art and that he should try to perpetuate the truth and honesty this art offers, today as it is coming out into the open I fear that historical and political spin may be on the verge of causing this art lose it's honesty and authenticity.

[drifting]

Dragon, the 12 Spirits (or animals as you prefer) are not the foundation of Liuhebafa. If you knew where they came from you would see that using them as the basics (assumable because they are short) not only harms the chance for learning the real foundations (refer to Chen's method) but also spoils what that practice is meant to develop when the time for it really does come. I quite agree with your take on the fighting aspect though. Using the particular techniques from the form is not the goal of Liuhebafa, but using the mechanics and structure and flow of LHBF along with its combative theory that is the key to this formless water boxing. Wang was quite brilliant to have foreseen the end stages; it seemed his art was developed from the end towards the beginning where as other arts are developed from the beginning towards the end. One has a murky beginning and one has a murky ending... perhaps the answer is to put them together?

Master Choi said Chen feared LHBF was a dieing art? I dont think Chen really cared, he could have pumped out skilled masters by the dozens if he wanted to. Those few he chose to open up to became highly skilled and in a short time too. Since Wu the numbers have been on the rise consistently, the art has never been dying or decreasing in numbers or even in skill for that matter.