Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby neijia_boxer on Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:37 am

another xianhao cheng translation and commentary


Taiji Random Ring Formula
By Dr. Xianhao Cheng and Taiji group in Rick’s martial art school

The “Random Ring Formula” has been a secret in martial arts history. In a novel by Jin Yong, the most famous martial arts writer, in the early “Qin Dynasty” of China, a high ranking military officer, trained in southern style taiji, murdered most of his taiji brothers to get the “Random Ring Formula.” Although he felt his martial art level was already very high, he thought he might make significant progress if he could learn the “Random Ring Formula.”

It is not very difficult to get a copy of the “Random Ring Formula” now, however it is not easy to understand. The following is the “Random Ring Formula” and its explanation passed down from Yang, Chenfu and Jiang, Yukun.

Random ring formula is the most difficult to understand; by coordinating the body properly, the application is wonderful.
Trap your opponent into the random rings; four ounces can be applied to overcome a thousand pounds.
Advance steps and hands simultaneously, and seek on side and horizontal directions; the random rings will never come to nothing.
If you want to know the secret of the rings, you will be successful by matching the points that you send out your power with where you expect your opponent to fall down.

Application of taiji techniques is largely based on the variation of circles. Forward or backward, on offense or defense, your motions are all circular like the motion of rings. The “random ring” indicates that the motion of ring is random and it follows no fixed pattern. It can be big or small, in a horizontal, vertical, or diagonal plane, and have shape or no shape. An important rule for the formula is that bigger overcomes smaller, diagonal overcomes upright, “no shape” motion overcomes the motion with shape.

The idea of ring motion with no shape may confuse less-experienced taiji practitioners. We know that the motions of taiji are all circular. It can be said that “if motion is not circular it is not taiji”. Once moving, one’s action is within the range of circular power. This circular power should become one’s nature. Therefore, although our hand moves straight forward with no seeming shape, once we touch the opponent, he/she will immediately feel that our power is fueled by a spiral motion. Also, the opponent can feel the spiral motion of his partner when he pushes his partner’s body, but may not see the motion. Because of the spiral function of this power, we may redirect our opponent’s attack and sense the chance to overcome him/her by sticking on the weakness. For instance, A pushes B’s shoulder with both hands. B’s inside spiral motion borrows A’s power from his right hand with B’s left shoulder sinking down, and with B’s right hand sticking on A’s left arm. A’s power can then be transferred to B’s right hand, which may lift A’s left root. Since A’s right side already leans forward into the push, the power working on A’s left side can cause him to spin. It is a typical example of “borrowing the power to hit power” (Fig. 1a and b).


It is true that once your opponent is lured into the range of shapeless rings, he/she may be controlled by a non-seeable spiral motion and loses balance. At this moment we may only need minimal force to overcome our opponent. It has been realized that the so called “four ounces overcome a thousand pounds” actually means using small force against large one. The author still remembers that when he chatted with Master Jiang, Yukun about Yang, Chenfu, Jiang said, “you guys only know how soft he was, but you do not know how powerful he was”. Instead of “four ounces against thousand pounds,” in the martial arts field it says, “build thousand pounds of power, but only use four ounces of energy.” It means that power is important in martial art; however it is best to use minimal power to reach the same result.

Pertaining to the random ring formula, for instance, when your opponent attacks you with a thousand pounds’ power, because you use the technique of spiral circulation, you can let the incoming power slide off its target and let him/her lose balance. Figure 2 shows an example of the application. In Figure 2a, A holds B’s waist tightly and tries to let B lose his balance. However, B traps A into random rings by sinking the left side of his power down to the bubbling well and then lets this power spiral up from the right heel to the right waist. At the same time, B’s arm controls A’s wrist during the spiral motion. At this moment, A’s right hand feels no power, but the left wrist is pressured by B’s arm and waist with an angle he feels very uncomfortable. Then B may shake his waist rapidly to let A lose his balance. The rapid and strong shake of B’s waist and arm can break A’s wrist. This shake will spirally turn for three circles from right to left, left to right and then right to left. That is why this technique is named “Yellow Dragon Triply Shakes Hands”. However, it is nicer if B only spirally pressures on A’s wrist to either side, and A can automatically jump out.

You may only need minimal force to overcome your opponent this way. However, it is not easy to cause an experienced martial artist to lose balance; therefore, depending on the situation, power may also be needed.


It explains the way of releasing “Integral Jin”, while using the “random ring formula.” Based on the way of “Jin” release (Fa Jin), it can be partial or integral. “Partial Jin” means using the “Jin” only from a part of your body, whereas “Integral Jin” indicates the power is from the whole of your body. It says if one wants to release the “Jin” from the whole body, he/she must advance legs and hands at the same time. In taiji push hands, it also says that if you want to advance hands, you need to advance body first; and if you want to advance your body, you must advance your leg first. These are the explanations for releasing your “Integral Jin”. Therefore, in martial arts applications we hear that if leg and hands reach together, you can beat your opponent “like beating a piece of grass” (Da Ren Ru Shong Chao); while if your step cannot follow your hands, even if you hit your opponent, it does not constitute a threat to him. It means to reach best result, you need to co-ordinate the hands motion with the step. Fig.3a and b show how B uses the technique of “Waving Lotus Hands” (Bai Lian Shou) sticking on A, stepping in and pushing.

“ Seeking on side and horizontal directions” imply that that you should find your partner’s weakness on side and transverse section and match your front to attack his side. In this case, your opponent will find it very difficult to keep his balance. It means that during push hands, even though your opponent falls into your random rings, you still need to seek for his transverse section to attack to obtain the best effect. With spiral power, plus the simultaneous advancing in hands and steps, we can then use small force to succeed against a large one, and the attack will not come to nothing. It has been widely used in taiji’s push hands that use cross direction to deflect straight power, and then catch the chance to attack people’s transverse section.

This sentence states the way of “Fa Jin” with random rings. It tells the reader that the “Jin” you send out must be in the direction where you want your opponent to fall down. For instance, once you turn the ring by leading incoming power to your side and slightly turn the ring up and forward, you may occupy the opponent’s side. At the same time, your mind projects the power to about 5 feet to the other side of your opponent and links your push to this point. It can be much easier to push your opponent down to his transverse side than to directly push his front. Figures 4a and 4b show B seeking A’s transverse direction, and matching the power to where he expects his opponent to fall down.

The above explanation from Jiang, Yukun’s note reveals the basic principle of the random ring; however it was still not quite clear to the author as how to form a ring during push hands until he read master Wang, Yongquans’ teaching material. Master Wang was one of Yang, Chenfu’s best indoor students. Nowadays, many good taiji masters in Beijing trace their lineage to him. Please see reference [1] about master Wang. In Wang’s teaching material it says, “touching your opponent by point instead of area, and both will be inconvenient if by area; if touched with area by chance, change the hands like just touched.” It actually tells the taiji practitioner to lead your opponent’s touch on your tangent line and with the straight line from “Bai Hui” to “Yong Quan” as the axis. With the “peng jin,” your ring will be automatically formed. If your partner pushes you, your slight turn of the ring can let him slide away and lose balance.

The authors demonstrate this case with Figure 5. Figure 5a shows A attacking by pressing on B’s chest. 5b shows B swallowing A’s power by constructing a ring and using A’s power to let him lose balance. Master Wang also mentioned that, in case you and your partner touch with area contact immediately change to have a point touch. For instance, B pushes A with an “An”, and A holds on B’s elbows. This constitutes an area touch (Fig. 6a). In this case A has a certain advantage; however, it is still the stronger who will win. While B immediately changes the hands by rolling down to the inside with the side of his front arms touch on A’s front arm, B forms rings with hyperbolic curves. A’s root can be slightly raised up then by pushing B forward. In addition, A’s front door can be opened. Then B can immediately roll his ring back and move half a step forward. By matching the step and push simultaneously, B can easily push A up.
As the formula states, the enjoyment of random ring’s application is endless. However, the theory of “Random Ring Formula” is rather profound. The authors hope that by the preliminary study on the random ring theory, it will have the effect, as a Chinese idiom says: “tossing a brick to attract a jade.”

Reference

[1] Yang Shi Taiji Quan Shu Zheng (Discuss the Truth of Yang Taiji Quan), By Wang, Yongquan, 1986. People’s Physical Culture Express of China
neijia_boxer

 

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby charles on Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:11 am

Thank you for providing the translation.
Last edited by charles on Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby klonk on Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:40 pm

This is very cool indeed. I practice silk reeling on random trajectories, a different one each day, on the basis that you do not know what you may need to stick to and follow. Of course this was to overcome my objection to the set pieces in the forms, "if he does this, then you do that, but if he does the other thing..." the if else if else if else if logic that works fine on paper, but no one can keep straight in a real fight.

Random rings. Could this be taijiquan's approach to formlessness?
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
User avatar
klonk
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6776
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 am

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby qiphlow on Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:42 pm

probably one of many roads to formlessness in taiji...
esoteric voodoo wizard
User avatar
qiphlow
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3925
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:09 am

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby Brinkman on Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:34 am

Random Ring Formula - "Luan Huan Jue" is also one of the nine songs (formula) handed down through the Yang Ban Hou classic, "Nine Songs and Eighty One Postures" "taijiquan jiu jue bashiyishi zhujie" The annotations included with this song (above) are normally attributed to "Wumengxia".

Marcus
Brinkman

 

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby neijia_boxer on Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:41 am

Brinkman wrote:Random Ring Formula - "Luan Huan Jue" is also one of the nine songs (formula) handed down through the Yang Ban Hou classic, "Nine Songs and Eighty One Postures" "taijiquan jiu jue bashiyishi zhujie" The annotations included with this song (above) are normally attributed to "Wumengxia".

Marcus


Any good info on these classics available? what is Wu Mengxia's background and where can i know more?
neijia_boxer

 

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby kreese on Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:08 am

count's teachers, Jason Tsou, has a pair of videos on tui shou based on the poem of the Random Circle, http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_TCpushhands.htm. I assume this is the same forumula/song/poem?
"Ignore the comments, people will bitch about anything." - Ian
kreese
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1556
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 3:49 am

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby Brinkman on Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:20 am

I believe, presently the only translation of "Taijiquan's Nine Songs and Eighty One Postures can found at formosaneijia.com. Wu Mengxia was reputed to be a disciple of 11 famous internal martial art masters, including Bagua teachers, Han Muxia and Gao Yisheng. There is another Emptyflower poster named "Yusen" (used to be around here) who could give you more detail about Wu's life and perhaps more insight about that particular song.

Marcus
Brinkman

 

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby AllanF on Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:07 pm

Cool thanks for that.
AllanF

 

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby klonk on Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:59 pm

Any chance of seeing the illustrations?
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
User avatar
klonk
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6776
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 am

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby iwalkthecircle on Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:51 pm

as marcus said this the part of Wumengxia's book.....


GM Chang also learn the same version of Yang TCC but showed SC apps from it calling it Chang TCC.


六、乱环诀:
乱环术法最难通,上下随合妙无穷。陷敌深入乱环内,四两千斤着法成。
手脚齐进横竖找,掌中乱环落不空。欲知环中法何在,发落点对即成功。

《乱环诀》
乱环术法最难通,上下随合妙无穷。陷敌深入乱环内,四两能拨千斤动。手脚齐进竖找横,掌中乱环落不空。欲知环中法何在,发落点对即成功。双环一套十字生,十字四端皆弧形;唯有当中是实点,还要围绕环边行;十字交点一错位,四两千斤亦可乘;掌中乱环横竖找,乱环法术在于通。
本门太极功夫,出手招招成环。所谓乱环,便是说拳招虽有定型,变化却存乎其人。手法虽均成环,却有高低、进退、出入、攻守之别。圈有大圈、小圈、平圈、立圈、斜圈、正圈、有形圈及无形圈之分。临敌之际,须得以大克小、以斜克正、以无形克有形,每一招发出,均须暗蓄环劲。我以环形之力,推得敌人进我无形圈内,那时欲其左则左,欲其右则右。然后以四两微力,拨动敌方千斤。务须以我竖力,击敌横侧。太极拳胜负之数,在于找对发点,击准落点

杨班侯

  亂環術法最難通,上下隨合妙無窮
 
"亂環"表示拳路沒有固定之招式,在摔技 的 應用上, 是以不特定的圓圈.弧線或螺旋線為主.
圓圈有大圈.小圈.平圈.立圈.斜圈.正圈..等等,甚至 再分有形圈與無形圈,圈圈都是變化不定的;
原則上以小圈剋大圈,以斜圈剋正圈,以無形圈剋有形圈.以無力剋有力,以慢打 快.


何謂無形圈? 就是在出手的動作中,會 使用到自己無形中已練出來的螺旋力量.此種力量
在外表看起來是直進直出的,但只要碰觸到對手的相關部位,便會顯現出此種 螺旋力,這種
力量,可以手腳上下相隨,左右相合,隨機而動,避實擊虛.

 

陷敵深入亂環內,四兩千斤著法成

將對方誘進我的無形圈內,待其受制我亂環螺旋力的牽制之後,只要以"四兩"之勁,即可撥動
對方"千斤"之力.也就是以亂環之法,"滑走"並"黏跟"對方之來力,同時也會讓對方失去第一
階段的平衡,緊跟在後的四兩之力,就足可翻摔對方.
.
 

手腳齊進橫豎找,掌中亂環落不空.

在黏住對方的力 量 之後,所按發之 反攻之力,可分"全力"與"局部力",全力是手腳併進,力透腳心
湧泉穴,貫穿經過腰部,發勁於牽制對手之點. "局部力"就是四肢單發的力量,也就是"四兩力".


橫豎找就是向對手的橫側進擊,可使對方失去重心.以豎擊橫,以橫擊豎.
 

欲知環中法何在,發落點對即成功

究竟如何運用亂環之法,才能心手相應呢? 例如當我向對方之橫側身攻擊時,感應(聽勁)
到對手的力點大小.方向.性質,要找準對方的體勢重心點,以直力或螺旋力,放勁擊出,




*** this one was missing from the book******

第十訣: 三環九轉訣

太極三環九轉功,環環盤在手掌中。

掌中亂環無定勢,點發點落擠虛空。

練拳不在點上用,枉費功夫終無成。

七星轉環腰腹主,八十一轉亂環終。
Last edited by iwalkthecircle on Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
謝奇錚, 鄉人多稱「小謝 」,「阿奇仔」亦以自稱。
臺灣臺南人,初學八卦掌, 後學保定摔角 皆在美國
(臺灣或曰福爾摩沙,蓋葡萄牙文美麗島之意也)
保定摔角(SC)-- John Wang(王世元), Matt Mollica
高氏八卦掌(Gao BGZ)-- Marcus Brinkman, Luo deXiu (羅德修), Yang yuSen(楊育森)
User avatar
iwalkthecircle
Great Old One
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 1:11 am
Location: USA.Ohio.Columbus; USA.Colorado.Denver; Taiwan

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby count on Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:49 am

kreese wrote:count's teachers, Jason Tsou, has a pair of videos on tui shou based on the poem of the Random Circle, http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_TCpushhands.htm. I assume this is the same forumula/song/poem?


I'm sorry Sifu :'( :-\ :-[ , I don't recommend this video for quality or getting the point across. It may have some usefulness, but it's more like an informal class of application discussion. I wouldn't even understand the connection if I didn't already know what he was trying to explain. I blame bad advice, direction and production levels. I give it 2 thumbs down. :D :-X

Jason Tsou teaches the poems of the random circles as part of his general tai chi program. They make excellent silk reeling exercises, but they are really separate training. I've heard him mention Ban Hao in connection with teaching the random circles, but I found them equally applicable to Chen style training too. In fact, I've found these a most useful and applicable part of any training.

This is actually the first time I've seen this referenced, outside of what I've been taught. Thanks for posting -bow- -bow- -bow-
Last edited by count on Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Live it or live with it.
User avatar
count
Great Old One
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 3:06 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby yusen on Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:08 am

Marcus translated the Wu mengxia's Taiji book into English, It's still on the market, right?
anyone who wants to know more about it, can get some references from the book.
yusen
yusen
Santi
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:58 am

Re: Randon Ring theory in Taijiquan

Postby iwalkthecircle on Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:29 am

yusen wrote:Marcus translated the Wu mengxia's Taiji book into English, It's still on the market, right?
anyone who wants to know more about it, can get some references from the book.
yusen



http://formosaneijia.com/my_products/ has it.

good thing i can read classical chinese.
although i would not mind supporting Marcus anyWay possible.
Last edited by iwalkthecircle on Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
謝奇錚, 鄉人多稱「小謝 」,「阿奇仔」亦以自稱。
臺灣臺南人,初學八卦掌, 後學保定摔角 皆在美國
(臺灣或曰福爾摩沙,蓋葡萄牙文美麗島之意也)
保定摔角(SC)-- John Wang(王世元), Matt Mollica
高氏八卦掌(Gao BGZ)-- Marcus Brinkman, Luo deXiu (羅德修), Yang yuSen(楊育森)
User avatar
iwalkthecircle
Great Old One
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 1:11 am
Location: USA.Ohio.Columbus; USA.Colorado.Denver; Taiwan


Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests