Studying martial arts in Taiwan v. mainland China

[C.J.Wang]

Well, as far as I know, CMA were more or less underground during the Japanese occupation.

But that didn't hamper a real strong develepement of unarmed combat abilities (farmer's equipment) of such styles as southern Taizu, the Hakka styles, Golden Eagle, southern Shaolin (what ever that might be), many styles which came with early Chinese imigrants before the Japs. They didn't use the sword or saber, but the forck and the 2 section stuff, iron wood stuff a.s.o.

I have been told by old-timers that during the Japanese occupation, the Japanese banned CMA practice in fear of potential uprising from the locals. Those who continued to teach and practice CMA had to do so at night behind closed doors. The Japanese encouraged the Taiwanese to practice Karate, Kendo, and Judo -- martial arts that they were familiar with and had control over. The police also kept an eye out for people who had extraodinary fighting skills and would arrest and torture them at gun point once they were perceived to be a threat. One of such individuals was the well-known Feeding Crane Grandmaster Lin De-Shun. The Japanese police arrested and immobolized Lin with a heavy dose of anesthetic before putting him on a boat back to Fujian. Unfortunately, Lin died during the journey as the result of an overdose and never got off the boat alive.

[wushutiger]

hmmm...very interesting....I am always keen to hear from taiwanese people that deutcher mentioned, exaxtly what they define as a chinese person or what exactly "chinese" dna is..... in fact, I always enjoy myself when i hear western definitions of what that is too..........

[DaDa]

I have a question, do any of He Jing Han students participate in fights? Sports or not. This is something I've always wondered because I've met him but only once. I couldn't really gather too much. I knew from the second I met him that he could fight and was in fights before.

[C.J.Wang]

I have a question, do any of He Jing Han students participate in fights? Sports or not. This is something I've always wondered because I've met him but only once. I couldn't really gather too much. I knew from the second I met him that he could fight and was in fights before.

Two question:

1) How do you know that he can fight?

2) Did he tell you any fight stories of his own?

[JoseFreitas]

When my teacher went to Taiwan with KMT, his brother was sent to prison for many years. Everyday the communist tortured my teacher's brother and wanted him to tell where did my teacher hide. The communist didn't believe that my teacher went to Taiwan and still believed that my teacher was hidden in China somwhere. During all those years, the communist did not give my teacher's brother enough food to eat in prison. He had to catch and ate cockroaches in prison cell in order to survive. His hands had shrinked into almost the size of baby's hands. When my teacher's brother told me this, his tear just came out of his eyes. That was how communist treated a famous TCMA master back then.

John, disgraceful as this was, I should point out that it was not aimed at TCMA, rather, it was how they treated a known associate, family member of a KMT sympathizer/party member (?). This is how I understand things re. martial arts. Maoism did not persecute MAs perse, rather, it persecuted specific groups and people. Many famous martial artists were strongly connoted with the nationalists, the KMT or with very traditional groups, societies, etc...They suffered because of that, not because of martial arts. I think during the Curltural Revolution it was slightly different, since the repression widened to a larger group of traditional practices, and ba shi was actually forbidden as an expression of feudal class-relations, but again, I don't think that martial arts were attacked per se.

if you go to Jarek's site, you have an interesting interview with Di Guoyong,. where he states that things were bad because martial arts were forbidden during the Cultural Revolution, and his teacher was tortured, beaten, arrested. etc... but read between the lines, and he says his teacher was actually a former KMT member, who did not refrain from making his sympathies public and insulted Mao publicly (this is what the Red Guards perceived). Almost in the same breath he tells how in the early 70's he met his Chuo Jiao teacher while training in a park! It's clear to me that martial artists suffered tremendously, as did many other sectors of traditional chinese culture, but they did so not because they were martial artists, but rather because they belonged ideologically to other side of chinese culture.

I'm sure that thousands of teachers managed to go through the period just fine and carried on their traditions and lineages normally, by staying out of politics, discussions, etc... Or by being good Party Members. It's just that sometimes there is a tendency within the Taiwanese MA community to proclaim Taiwan as the last refuge and haven of chinese martial arts, when it's nothing of the sort. Just think that many (most?) of those who came to Taiwan in 1949 were probably KMT members, ideologically close to the Nationalists, anti-communists, who had lost everything, and you'll see that they're hardly the best group to give us an unbiased account of what happened to martial arts in the mainland. And then there's an element of propaganda in it, when a lot of the teachers realize there is good money to be made from western and japanese students, and they might as well claim they have the true thing.

This is not a Communist vs. Capitalist discussion, it's about how martial arts were treated and perceived in the mainland and in Taiwan and how this affects training there today. It's all very well to know that the communists tortured, beat, killed, etc... We know this happened. But I could just as well say "don't go to Taiwan, most of the martial arts there were handed down by a bunch of fascist, right-wing thugs and soldiers escaping from the mainland". We know this is true in a lot of cases. But it's propaganda, because it doesn't impact the martial arts per se. Chiao Chang Hung, who passed on Little Nine Heaven to my teacher, James McNeill (and Shi Suei Nei Gong to the Hung brothers and to Xu Hong Shi) was a spy, a friend of Chang Kai Chek and probably a dangerous fascist whose import/export company was a front for the Taiwanese secret service or the CIA. By my book, a thoroughly disreputable character (I'm a notorious leftie). But it also explains why he went on and on about how the commies had "destroyed martial arts in China foerever". Liu Jingru had a good laugh when I explained the matter to him that he couldn't possibly have studied from his teachers and taught his students during those years!

[Formosa Neijia]

Dave reinvented himself as a fitness trainer. He is certified under one of the strength and conditioning groups, a kettlebell trainer (and the first source of kettlebells in Taipei) under Steve Cotter's group, and is happy training and running some innovative fitness classes in a nice little space. I personally witnessed him losing a lot of weight and getting fit. I'd run into him every once in a while and I could really see the changes in his body composition. He did a serious reality check and was very honest about what he needed to evolve his business so it could continue to grow and flourish. I'm not speaking for him, but since he was real nice to me, especially when I first moved there, I thought I'd chime in.

Thanks for the kind words. i told you that because I sensed you were a nice guy that would eventually want a career outside of martial arts and I didn't want you to sabotage that opportunity by teaching English here. You can find good MA in many places. I hope all is well BTW.

FWIW, I continue to practice on my own but do not teach any more. I prefer it that way.

PS: Dave from Formosa fitness (not Neijia anymore) is nowadays concentrating on kettlebells and other fitness craze from the west. I think he mostly quitt ICMA, if I'm not mistaken. So take this info with a bit of salt.

This is a bit unkind since I've gone out of my way to help you but it's what I've come to expect. Let others learn from my lesson.

As far as I know, most of the old CMA masters in Taiwan had passed away. I truly don't know any good CMA guys in Taiwan right now (I mean in our previous generation). If you want to learn

- SC, you can go to Taiwan and learn from my SC brothers there. You can just simply learn from my senior SC brother David C. K. Lin in US.
- Longfist, you can learn from Dr Yang Jwing-Ming in US since all Longfist in Taiwan are taught by my Longfist brothers anyway.
- Zimen, 2 of the best Zimen guys are in NYC and Dallas.
- ...

I'll not suggest to go to Taiwan just to train CMA.

This is sort of what i was getting at. Not that there aren't good teachers here, there are. But with foreigners like Marcus Brinkman, Ken Fish, Tim Cartmell, etc. you'd be better off moving to where they are and studying with them than coming here. Or with finding good teachers in the States. I met MANY good teachers back there. David Lin in North Carolina has crazy powerful IMA, Desmond Jackson in Florida was one of the most skilled and dedicated teachers I ever had, Al-wallee Muhammed still has the smoothest bagua I've seen. Many of the Westerners that studied long term in Asia as well as the Chinese that immigrated to the States can bridge the cultural divide for you so you don't have to. They can teach you stuff without all the baggage of trying to live and work here. That's a huge advantage.

On a final note, as someone mentioned many IMA guys are making a living doing something else. Steve Cotter is one of the most powerful people I've ever met and his kettlebell work and IMA power is just crazy. He can show you how to use the kettlebells to build IMA power if people are open minded enough to look. And I'm sure that Scott Rodell uses IMA principles in his business practices, as do many others. It's perfectly normal.

[taiwandeutscher]

"I continue to practice on my own but do not teach any more. I prefer it that way."

That is good to hear, Dave, but it does not show on your sites, which I still visit, so I know what you wrote on the arts there. Seems that your teachers have not been that great after all.

"This is a bit unkind since I've gone out of my way to help you but it's what I've come to expect. Let others learn from my lesson."

I don't see any unkindness, just the truth. In fact, I'm happy, that you found a way you like to support your familiy in Taibei. I had warned you about being a western Taijiquan teacher in Taiwan.

You really helped me, Dave, thank you once more, and I payed you nearly half of the book price. Was that not enough? I had no bad intention at all, I just reported that you are out of the IMA business, that's all.

And that we all do some other stuff, even as fulltime jobs, that is really the norm. Full professionals are not that often to find.

[Formosa Neijia]

Seems that your teachers have not been that great after all.

That's not true at all and I do not want people to be left with that impression. I'm so tired of going over this. All of my teachers had much to teach but people need to be more realistic about having balance in their lives. Moving to Asia just to study MA involves great personal sacrifice, a sacrifice that isn't widely talked about IMO. I turned out fine and have a family and a home here now but in order to do that, I had to let my art evolve away from certain things and into other areas. Sometimes communities can't understand that evolution and I'm learning to accept that fact.

BTW, I wrote the Martial Artist's Guide to Taipei to specifically steer potential students to my former teachers and other teachers I felt were doing a good job and that were open to teaching foreigners. It was my small attempt to give something back to them for teaching me and to help out people that were coming here for various reasons. All of the teachers I recommended are very, very knowledgeable and open to teaching foreigners. i highly recommend them all.

[gzregorz]

I believe this article on Fu Nei Pai taiji shows that although things were tough during the Cultural Revolution the transmission of Chinese martial arts continued when it was all over.

http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/ ... -li-zheng/

[ShortFormMike]

Liu Jingru, Wang Pei Sheng, Li Bing Ci, Feng Zhiqiang, Pei Xirong, Xie Pei Qi, Sha Guo Zheng, Yang Yuting, Zhu Baozhen, Wan Lai Sheng, Li Zi Ming, etc... etc.... and I'm sure I'm missing hundreds of teachers

According to available info, at least half of the guys above came perilously close to losing their life. So whether this was gov policy or not is largely irrelevant. It seems safe to say China was a dangerous place for these folks regardless.

This was a fun thread. I like reading the first hand stuff from the guys out there doing the damn thing.

[JoseFreitas]

Liu Jingru, Wang Pei Sheng, Li Bing Ci, Feng Zhiqiang, Pei Xirong, Xie Pei Qi, Sha Guo Zheng, Yang Yuting, Zhu Baozhen, Wan Lai Sheng, Li Zi Ming, etc... etc.... and I'm sure I'm missing hundreds of teachers

According to available info, at least half of the guys above came perilously close to losing their life. So whether this was gov policy or not is largely irrelevant. It seems safe to say China was a dangerous place for these folks regardless.

I will agree that China was a dangerous place at the time. As I said, I don't really think it was mostly because they were martial artists. I would add, though, that in the previous list, perhaps with the exception of Pei Xirong (don't know much about his personal life), no one came close to losing their life. I'm sure that many masters did, but not the ones I referred to. Some had a hard time: Xie Pei Qi states he was sometimes hungry (in the Great leap Forward time, not the Cultural Revolution), Li Bing Ci was sick from overworking, etc... but not close to losing their lives.

[DaDa]

I just learned something interesting that pertains to this topic.

So during the cultural revolution, many masters were not only locked up, but beaten by their own students.

Therefore, after the cultural revolution, certain teachers taught the forms and everything about their martial arts in the new WuShu-y way without the combat because of that experience. They were worried that the cultural revolution would happen again, and were preparing for it by not teaching their students how to fight.

[ShortFormMike]

Liu Jingru, Wang Pei Sheng, Li Bing Ci, Feng Zhiqiang, Pei Xirong, Xie Pei Qi, Sha Guo Zheng, Yang Yuting, Zhu Baozhen, Wan Lai Sheng, Li Zi Ming, etc... etc.... and I'm sure I'm missing hundreds of teachers

I will agree that China was a dangerous place at the time. As I said, I don't really think it was mostly because they were martial artists. I would add, though, that in the previous list, perhaps with the exception of Pei Xirong (don't know much about his personal life), no one came close to losing their life. I'm sure that many masters did, but not the ones I referred to. Some had a hard time: Xie Pei Qi states he was sometimes hungry (in the Great leap Forward time, not the Cultural Revolution), Li Bing Ci was sick from overworking, etc... but not close to losing their lives.

Li Zi Ming describes being beaten half to death in the PaKua Journal. Wang peisheng nearly died in a concentration camp. Actually he said two of his famous buddies didn't make it. Said his knowledge of medicine was only thing that saved him. As mentioned before, Wan Laisheng was tortured. Wang Ziping's story is also very sad since were talking about famous guys.

Damn, I can think of more if u want.

[JoseFreitas]

I stand corrected. I took the time to go re-read some of the bios (the only one I couldn't find mention of what you speak is Wan Lai Sheng) and indeed Wang Pei Sheng and Li Zi Ming had their problems. Note though, Wang's political problems arose form his association with another guy who ran into trouble with the Party during the Cultural Revolution, and again, this had nothing to do with martial arts per se.

[johnwang]

this had nothing to do with martial arts per se.

What kind of job could a good CMA master do during that period of time in China? They could work for:

- secret service,
- military,
- police,
- body guard for import political person,

The CMA might have nothing to do with their death but their job would. Do you think CMA master such as 高芳先(Gao Fang Xian) will have any chance to be alive in China?




孫臏拳一代宗師【愛國武術宗師抗戰英雄~高芳先將軍】
高芳先先生，1914年5月生，字天佐，山東即墨人，於南京軍官學校第3期畢業。曾任青島國術館副館長、中華國術會監事、中華太極拳總會顧問、陸軍91師師長、青島保安旅旅長、青島市警察局局長、青島市保安隊總隊長等職。
自1922年開始習武，1927年從王永彬、楊庭棟、田鴻業、李義三、常秉義等名武術老師學習北派少林拳、地功拳、孫臏拳、形意拳、中國摔跤等。 1933年獲第17屆華北運動會拳術及摔跤冠軍，1935年獲第6屆全國運動會中量級摔跤冠軍。先後在青島運動會上兩次獲三項冠軍。
二次世界大戰時，山東省遭日本人攻陷，高副館長芳先於是率館成員組成大刀隊，攻襲日本軍，卓效匪淺，因功勳彪榜，一路升至為少將師長，後得國民黨徵召編為正規軍(青島保安旅)，因功勳彪榜，勳績昭彰，先生被譽為《嶗山之獅》之美譽，成為抗日英雄名噪一時。服役期間獲海陸空甲種獎章及勝利寶鼎勳章等． ． ． 。
後因國民黨失利於中共，國軍大舉遷移來台，高芳先老師當時率領青島國術館子弟兵及青島保安旅來台，後定居於台中市區，在台中市開設武館，傳授武藝，也為著傳統武術的保存留下不可磨滅的貢獻。曾編擬「軍中戰鬥體育莒拳國術教材」先生在台中市傳授國術，長達二十年，先生有教無類，台灣弟子及來台習武者：美國人、日本人、英國人、德國人、香港人等從學者逾千人，桃李滿天下，為中華武術傳承做出偉大的貢獻。其門徒遍於社會各界，第一代其傳承表如下：高華傑、高華柱、蔡明雄、楊宗昌、謝淑英、路文彥、陳金寶、陳金山、紀三協、戴正義、林聰明、羅彩文、孫明玉、莊茂隆、黃連順、洪瑞堂、廖本龍、吳清發、賴錦廷、何獻欽、江瑞芳、唐人屏、魏仲良、李裕國、邱作典、黃進財、曾桂國、徐玉梅、張伯夷
Juan blow a great 【 patriotic war hero ~ martial arts master higher-Fong first General 】 Mr. Takasaki, before 1914, hygiene, Word tianzuo, Shandong jimo, in Nanjing Academy graduation phase 3. Served as Deputy Director of Qingdao bonesetter, Chinese martial arts will supervisors, Chinese shadow boxing association consultants, army 91 Division, Qingdao Security Brigade Commander, Qingdao City Police Commissioner, the RUC Group Commander in Qingdao.
Since 1922, warriors, 1927 from Wang bin, Mr Dinh Tung, Tin-hung, Li Yi Yi Chang Ping, and other members of martial arts teacher learning Northern Shaolin fist, real and reactive power fist, Juan boxing, xingyi fist, wrestling, etc. In 1933 by the 17th North boxing and wrestling championship games, 1935 by the 6th National Games Middleweight wrestling champion. Successively in Qingdao games twice by three championship.
When World War II, Japan people in Shandong province has been captured, Deputy Director-first and rate Museum members, tenodera team attacking Japan army, Zhuo-activity were brief, meritorious Biao standings, all the way up to the major Division Chief, after the KMT recruited as regular army (Qingdao Security Brigade), meritorious Biao standings, Mr. Isao JI notorious, known as the lion of the laoshan "reputation as anti-Japanese hero of the hour. Service by air, road and sea letters a medal and victory Medal, etc. £ ® Baoding..
After losing to Communist China, the Kuomintang nationalist forces on a large scale migration to Taiwan, Takasaki first teacher was led by Qingdao bonesetter's own army and Qingdao Security Brigade to Taiwan, Taichung city after settled in the city offer military Hall in Taichung, imparting skills as well as the preservation of traditional Wushu indelible contribution. Have prepared 「introduction military combat sports Jackie boxing martial arts textbooks 」, Taichung City teaching martial arts for over 20 years, Mr. Brevard, Taiwan disciples and come to Taiwan to joyfully: United States, Japan, the United Kingdom, Germany, Hong Kong, etc from scholars over thousands, and the plum blossoms, a Chinese martial arts tradition make great contribution. His disciples were again in the community, the first generation of its heritage table are as follows: high huajie, Gao Hua Chu, Tsai Ming-hsiung, Yang Tsung Chang, Xie shuying, road Wenyan, Chen Bo, Chen Jin Shan, jisan Association and wearing smart justice, forests, Famille, Eric Yu, Chong Mau, coptis Shun, Hong, Liao Ching Ng, the Dragon, hair, Lai Kam Tin, which offered-yum, Jiang ruifang, Tong Yan ping, Wei-Zhong-Liang, Li Yu Qiu, for code, Huang Jin Choi, GUI, Mrs. Anita Mui, Zhang Boyi