Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby kal on Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:08 am

I was always under the (wrong) impression that karate was a purely external art and just relied on muscles and external strength.

But I was very very impressed and interested by a documentary I saw about Okinawan karate, particularly Uechi Ryu. They do what they call Iron Body training which involves breathing methods. Eventually the practitioners can withstand very strong strikes and can have thick wood smashed over almost all parts of the body. Including the toes. YES! I saw one man point his toes, and someone else smashed a plank of wood across the POINTS of his toes.

They also do hand conditioning and lots of breaking. I saw the same guy smash wood with his fingertips.

I've never been that impressed with the brute strength breaking I've seen in Kyokushin karate, but this was something quite different in my eyes. None of these guys looked tense or as though they were using much strength or effort.

Now, supposedly Okinawan karate comes from southern Chinese martial arts, so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised by what I saw. But I was highly impressed. It did seem a lot more internal than many kung fu people I have seen.

Short youtube clip I found
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Sprint on Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:21 am

I'm not convinced about the internal aspect. To me, internal means the whole body moving as one and that I don't see on this clip. Being able to move the whole body as a unit means big power over small distances. Here we see big wind up strikes to break wood - long kicks and hand strikes. Also looking at the kata the body work is disjointed.

People should know that this type of conditioning will leave you crippled when you get older, meaning 50's - 60's. So what good is it knowing that in your youth you were a great fighter but in old age you can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag?

Also what does breaking wood actually demonstrate? If the grain of the wood is correctly aligned it is easy to break. Also if it's dried it is easier to break. You never see these demos with wood held cross ply. That I would pay to see.
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby MikeC on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:59 am

Ahh, memories. Uechi was my first style many moons ago. I remember my teacher showing me a picture of a guy he trained with who could toe-kick through those metal trash cans.
Yikes!

:o
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Buddy on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:06 am

Mine too. But internal? I think not.
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Shenquan on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:56 am

It doesn't seem very internal to me either for the same reasons explained by Sprint. As for the conditioning required for such kind of breaks if done like I've seen in other Japanese videos concerning karate than it's all about developing bone callousity which is very unproductive in long terms as far as health and articular mobility are concerned. As for the withstanding of strong blows doesn't seem to be due to a sort of body expansion analouge to that found in iron shirt/golden bell training; it looks more like they use contraction and a fierce mind attitude not to feel or think about the pain they're inflicted.
All of this obviously does not necessarily imply that in the whole of Japan close relations with Chinese neigong have totally been lost, but I just don't think this is the case
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby ParryPerson on Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:52 am

Most if not all Chinese/Japanese martial arts have an internal aspect to them, and some are called "internal" or "external" when really they are a mix of both, taught at different times. Like Tai Chi starts internal, and ends external, something like long fist starts external, and ends internal.

I would consider an art that focuses more on the internal to be an "internal art", and I wouldn't classify Uechi Ryu karate as such.
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby mixjourneyman on Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:56 am

I studied Goju, which is a cousin of Uechi (actually, I'm hoping to start back up as soon as I get back to Guelph), I would practice each technique with whole body force and dan tien compression on the strikes. My teacher was totally like "its good that you can do that, we have this too, but not usually till later". So my opinion is that karate starts out very rigid and hard and then moves to a more coordinated and softer approach. I wouldn't apply the word internal though, since it is a Chinese specific word in martial arts culture.
Also, I read somewhere that Chojun Myagi may have had some experience in xingyi and taiji. :)
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby nianfong on Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:30 am

the closer you get to okinawa, the closer the karate gets to fujian white crane system. all chinese MA, inc shaolin, have neigong/internal aspects. internal arts have external aspects as well.

when you rely on being harder/stronger than the other guy for your style's central fighting strategy, that's often when it's not an internal style--since you don't need to have really good internal control to make it work (though of course it helps). muay thai for example is about being harder than the other guy.

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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Old Man Chi on Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:08 pm

"There really is no internal style. There's only people doing martial arts internally or not."

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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Dr.Rob on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:11 pm

Great points...all of them I think one of the greatest exponents of Uechi Ryu is Sensei Shiyhin Goshi...I have been searching youtube to find any post by him. No luck...as great and powerful as he is...I think hands down its all external and well earned hardening. He has core strengh but little to no hip rotation.

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Last edited by Dr.Rob on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Shenquan on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:12 pm

Historically internal and exernal were simply a way of referring to what was shaolin based (shaolins are buddhists, which was obviously considered a foreign religion thus the term exernal was used) and what was not. Now I strongly believe that, independent of what you practice, internal and exernal are just different levels of mind/body mastery and it's not rare to see, for example, really exernal examples of taijiquan just like there are excellent high level internal performers in styles such as tang lang.
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Bill on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:36 pm

Rob
I got hits on Sensei Shihan Goshi. Is this the same person ?
Here's a vid I found...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2yZk-Ty658
It hurts when I Pi
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Elliot on Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:31 pm

Hello Sprint, I have a question for you, you said in your post above that:

"People should know that this type of conditioning will leave you crippled when you get older, meaning 50's - 60's. So what good is it knowing that in your youth you were a great fighter but in old age you can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag?"

I can tell by the tone of your post you must know everthing about Karate conditioning, but when I looked at Uechi Karate on Youtube I found a whole lot of old masters that looked like they were agile and in great shape, this guy for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdVd4sYcXOE

Do you think it is some kind of trick photography? Please help us understand.
Last edited by Elliot on Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby C.J.Wang on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:39 pm

mixjourneyman wrote:I studied Goju, which is a cousin of Uechi (actually, I'm hoping to start back up as soon as I get back to Guelph), I would practice each technique with whole body force and dan tien compression on the strikes. My teacher was totally like "its good that you can do that, we have this too, but not usually till later". So my opinion is that karate starts out very rigid and hard and then moves to a more coordinated and softer approach. I wouldn't apply the word internal though, since it is a Chinese specific word in martial arts culture.
Also, I read somewhere that Chojun Myagi may have had some experience in xingyi and taiji. :)


I've heard that "oh yeah, we have this in our system too" excuse many times coming from people who don't want to lose face by admitting that certain elements are missing in the styles they practice.

I practice Fukien White Crane and based on what I have learned and observed from various masters from different Crane lineages in Taiwan, the Okinawan Karate guys only got the basic "hard" forms of the systems from the Chinese and were never let in on the higher level "soft" training and application. In our system, for example, we start out learning a hard form similar to Sanchin that builds tendon strength and structure. As students progress, the subsequent forms taught become softer and more flowing. When my 90-year-old teacher demonstrates and applies techniques, he's just as soft as the best Taiji guys I have experienced with emphasis on sticking, adhereing, neutralizing, and issuing power. The differences is that when you push with him you have to worry about getting finger jabbed in the eyes and throat. ;D

There are exceptions, though, of Karate pracitioners who are much better than the rest. Check this guy out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo
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Re: Uechi Ryu karate internal?

Postby Dr.Rob on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:43 pm

Crap I got to learn to spell check..sorry Shinyu Gushi

this is the dude who rocks....http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Tsunami/P ... ction5.htm
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