Book 'Wu Style Fast Set' by MYL now in English

[velalavela]

Interesting thread. Especially the info on Song Shu Ming and Qi Min Xuan that cropped up in Wudang/Chen Ting Hung tai Chi part of the discussion. Though interesting to note in that line yang Lu Chan's student Wang Lan Ting ( "the manchu rebel")is the teacher of Li Rui Dong who founded Li Style Tai Chi....

I should probably introduce myself a bit and explain my interest in Tai Chi.

I started learning an external Kung fu style in 1981. Our master came to New Zealand in 1950 from China aged 24 after surviving fighting the Japanese and surviving the Civil War that followed. He was a founder member of the Chinese Martial Arts association in New Zealand. http://www.cmaa.org.nz

About 1994 I started learning Yang Style Tai Chi. My brother was already a tai Chi student of Patrick Kelly.

My own Yang Style Tai Chi Teacher started learning in Shanghai in the 1940's

I became Shi Mei Lin's Student in 1996 an have continued as her student ever since.

Anyway I digress.

Someone mentioned 'Occam's Razor' earlier in this thread. Where the simplest explanation is actually the most likely. Well if we apply that concept to the Wu Style fast form debate what do we get?

Point 1:

There are consistent references to Yang Chen Fu and Wu Chien Chuan taking out the 'abrupt movements, jumping, 'stomping' and fa jing from the Tai Chi forms they taught when Tai Chi was publicly taught from 1914 at the Athletic Research Institute in Beijing. In Fu Zhong Wen's Tai Chi Book and Wu Ying Hua's and Ma Yueh Liangs book for example.


There are also references to Yang Shou Hou's small circle frame or Fast frame being practiced at higher speed with fast jumps and kicks, actions that have generally been deleted from most of the modern styles of Tai Chi. ( From Wu Tunan's book, Fu Zhong Wen's Book and even in Chen Pan Ling’s Book)

All three of Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua's books consistently refer to the slow form and the fast form.

Tung Ying Chieh created a fast set from Yang Chen Fu's tai chi and from his studies of Wu/Hao Style.

Peter Lim Tian Tek's web pages describe Yang Style Tai Chi Long Boxing, describing this as the Yang style fast set saying it is still taught today. http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/index.htm. That web page has been around for a while ( I think I first read this back in 2000 or 2001.

Chen style Tai Chi obviously still has the ''abrupt movements, jumping, 'stomping' and fa jing ' that was taken out of the public forms taught by Yang Chen Fu, Wu Chien Chuan and Sun Lu Tang.

Love it or Hate it 'Youtube' has been a great way to see some very rare and historic martial arts footage. It's also very useful to see what is out there today and what people are doing. There are many examples of 'tai Chi fast forms' out there. Not all of this can be 'fake'. Even if they are not exactly the same or correct they indicate the existence of a Tai Chi fast form , Tai Chi forms with fa jing included and must be at least based on such a form.

So I think we have to say there is pretty clear evidence that there was a faster Tai Chi form that had the Fa Jing included it and that Yang Chen Fu, Yang Shou Hao and Wu Chien Chuan all practiced and knew this form in the early part of the last century.

Point 2

It's also pretty clear that this form was not taught publicly and that it was pretty closely guarded and only taught to family members and very close disciples (if they were lucky). Dr Yan is right about Shi Mei Lin and Fast form. I've been her student 12 years now and I only know three postures. As far as I know she has taught it herself to no one yet.

Point 3

Next we have to consider what is more likely in the case of Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua regards the Wu Style Fast Form.

You have the son in Law and top disciple of Wu Chien Chuan, who helped him teach at the Chien Chuan Association and Wu Chien Chuan's own Daughter. Is it really credible that they would 'create a form' claim it is the original form unless it actually was? That they disclosed this in 1982 because finally it was safe to do so after the Cultural revolution was over and because they did not want it to die out unless it really was Wu Chien Chuan’s form. They believed 'Yang Style fast form' already had died out just as many other styles of martial Arts had in China due to the purges of 'Feudalistic practices' by the Communist Government.

Knowing their character and dedication to Tai Chi and to Wu Chien Chuan’s legacy I have no trouble in accepting that the fast Form is genuine, but also consider this:

Point 4

What would their motivation be?

Was it fame? No, they are already famous and already the heads of Wu Style tai Chi in China.

Was it money? Well hardly. They never exploited their Tai Chi and as far as they were concerned already knew the full system.

As Dr Yan has already mentioned in this thread they had preserved a number of sets either lost or only partially remembered by other lines of Wu Style Tai Chi/Tai Chi.

It's interesting to note that their Children and Adopted daughter have also not exploited their Tai Chi legacy. If it was a fame and money making exercise where are all the videos, and seminars and tours to learn fast Form from Ma Jiang Bao or Ma Hai Long or Shi mei Lin. They don't treat it that way and they don't teach it that way either.

Point 5

If you except that all the other forms/exercises/Chi Gung and weapons forms from Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua are valid Wu Style Tai Chi passed down to them from Wu Chien Chuan, why not accept that the 'Wu Style fast Form' is the same?

Point 6

Regards Wu Chien Chuan and his time in Honk Kong. In my experience in Traditional Martial Arts. Even if he was there the full 1937 – 1942 5 years is not really that much time. So other than Wu Kung Yi I don’t think any of his Hong Kong Disciples would have reached a level were they would have been taught this form as they would not have spent enough time learning with him. They may well have never even seen it.

Point 7,
Why at the end of your life go to all the trouble of teaching, demonstrating and creating a form (and producing a book about it) that was not genuine? Why would you bother? Why would you want to create all that trouble for uourself, your family and your students/disciples unless it was the real thing?

Regards to you all

Bill

[Doc Stier]

Someone mentioned 'Occam's Razor' earlier in this thread. Where the simplest explanation is actually the most likely.

There are also references to Yang Shao-Hou's small circle fast frame being practiced at higher speed with fast jumps and kicks, actions that have generally been deleted from most of the modern styles of Tai Chi.

So I think we have to say there is pretty clear evidence that there was a faster Tai Chi form that had the Fa Jing included in it...in the early part of the last century.

If you except that all the other forms/exercises/Chi Gung and weapons forms from Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua are valid Wu Style Tai Chi passed down to them from Wu Chien-Chuan, why not accept that the 'Wu Style fast Form' is the same?

Bill:

You made some excellent points.

Regarding the last point, I don't think that anyone doubts the validity of the Wu Style Fast Form as an authentic form set in the Wu Style of Tai-Chi Chuan, but some of us question whether this particular form set alone represents the sole remaining vestige of the original form of Tai-Chi Chuan among all of the various form sets taught within the major style lineages still in existence today.

There is also no doubt regarding the existence of one or more Yang Style Small Frame Fast Form Sets practiced by the first three generations of the Yang Family. But it seems to be either negated and dismissed by some individuals, or completely overlooked and ignored by others, that an untold number of Old Yang Style practitioners who had learned such form sets from one or more of the early Yang Masters, left China following the Communist Revolution to avoid probable persecution or worse by Mao's 'New China' government.

These individuals preserved and practiced what they had learned from the Yangs, and subsequently taught others in various parts of the world outside of China. Their exodus was in fact a contributing factor to the demise of the older methods, along with government persecution of remaining family practitioners at that time, combined with government pressure placed on them to modify their styles to a new emphasis on health and self-cultivation benefits for the masses in place of the previous emphasis on internal martial art development and boxing applications possessed by only a few people comparatively.

Some of these individuals were noted practitioners or teachers already at that time who were certain to be taken to task, while others were merely dedicated students who correctly perceived that their growing skills and abilities stemming from the serious practice of the Old Yang Style was likely to draw negative attention to themselves eventually. As a result, in many instances, this material escaped the Communist purging of such 'feudalistic practices' from the 'Old China', thus surviving outside the country throughout Asia and abroad.

Unfortunately, successive family members of the major Tai-Chi Chuan styles were essentially cheated of their family birthright inheritance in the process, as few if any opportunities to recover the older methods were accessible to them within China over time....a very sad injustice to be sure!

Doc

[Martin2]

Hello Bill,

great thanks for your post. You were able to bring into words what I was thinking all the time. Big thanks.

And finally is this the one and only fast form?

Once Ma Jiangbao was asked about the forms in old times and he said, that at this times the forms where not that defined as today. Even one master did it this or that way and was teaching it different to different students (students at that time were mostly deciples and they were not that many). Only with modern times and the teaching outside of family and desiples the forms became more defined and styles came up. And suddenly nowadays we have the problem: Is this Yang style? Is this Wu style? Is this the same form of teacher ... as when he was teaching 50 years ago?

So I think one can be very relaxed about the dicussions of old times. It is a jiggsaw puzzle where many pieces are still not there (may be never will be found). The find of only one new piece can change the whole picture, but this still doesn't mean that now we have the full picture.

Thus the responsibilty of the Taichi historians is to go on and collect datas. I think everybody here is interested to know more. But to draw a final conclusions now is too early for me. Imagine, of what times we are talking here. In not 80 years China went through the change from the medivial Emperor - than repulican times - passing Comunism - entering modern Capitalism. Rough way in a short time. Easy to loose knowledge.

Greetings

Martin2

[Finny]

Hahahaha

[edededed]

More images from Dr. Yan, please go to the thread below:

http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1762&p=31123#p31123

[cdobe]

Point 1:

There are consistent references to Yang Chen Fu and Wu Chien Chuan taking out the 'abrupt movements, jumping, 'stomping' and fa jing from the Tai Chi forms they taught when Tai Chi was publicly taught from 1914 at the Athletic Research Institute in Beijing. In Fu Zhong Wen's Tai Chi Book and Wu Ying Hua's and Ma Yueh Liangs book for example.


There are also references to Yang Shou Hou's small circle frame or Fast frame being practiced at higher speed with fast jumps and kicks, actions that have generally been deleted from most of the modern styles of Tai Chi. ( From Wu Tunan's book, Fu Zhong Wen's Book and even in Chen Pan Ling’s Book)

All three of Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua's books consistently refer to the slow form and the fast form.

Tung Ying Chieh created a fast set from Yang Chen Fu's tai chi and from his studies of Wu/Hao Style.

Peter Lim Tian Tek's web pages describe Yang Style Tai Chi Long Boxing, describing this as the Yang style fast set saying it is still taught today. http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/index.htm. That web page has been around for a while ( I think I first read this back in 2000 or 2001.

Chen style Tai Chi obviously still has the ''abrupt movements, jumping, 'stomping' and fa jing ' that was taken out of the public forms taught by Yang Chen Fu, Wu Chien Chuan and Sun Lu Tang.

Love it or Hate it 'Youtube' has been a great way to see some very rare and historic martial arts footage. It's also very useful to see what is out there today and what people are doing. There are many examples of 'tai Chi fast forms' out there. Not all of this can be 'fake'. Even if they are not exactly the same or correct they indicate the existence of a Tai Chi fast form , Tai Chi forms with fa jing included and must be at least based on such a form.

So I think we have to say there is pretty clear evidence that there was a faster Tai Chi form that had the Fa Jing included it and that Yang Chen Fu, Yang Shou Hao and Wu Chien Chuan all practiced and knew this form in the early part of the last century.

These references are open to interpretation. If you study Ma Yueliang's form, they make sense to you, in that you can find the described characteristics met. However, if you study in the Northern Wu lineage, in Wu Gongyi's or Wu Gongzhao's lineage, or in Cheng Wing Kwong's lineage, you'll learn the advanced ways to do the form, too. An advanced practitioner of any of these other lineages performs a fast form with fa jins as well (Still, being fast is only one way of playing the form). One also learns different variations of doing one and the same posture (Thank you Martin for confirming this).
The problem with Ma Yueliang's claims is not that something like fast forms existed, but his claim of sole representation of the entire system of Wu style Taijiquan is problematic. He claims that his fast form, and only his form, without any changes or personal additions, is the original form that has been passed down to him by Wu Jianquan. Other fast sets do make a lot of sense too and furthermore show clearly the transition from slow form to fast form. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say which form is better than the other. My point is that looking at all available facts it is most likely that Ma practiced and promoted what he found to be a good representation of the old way of practicing taiji with a heavy handwriting and his very own advancements.
The term "Taiji Long Boxing" or 太极长拳 IMO denoted the quality of continuity as it has been described in several classics. In the Taijiquan Jing for example, Changquan is likened to a great river.

Point 2

It's also pretty clear that this form was not taught publicly and that it was pretty closely guarded and only taught to family members and very close disciples (if they were lucky). Dr Yan is right about Shi Mei Lin and Fast form. I've been her student 12 years now and I only know three postures. As far as I know she has taught it herself to no one yet.

The problem is that you can theoretically "disclose" anything as a previously secret practice that way.

Point 3

Next we have to consider what is more likely in the case of Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua regards the Wu Style Fast Form.

You have the son in Law and top disciple of Wu Chien Chuan, who helped him teach at the Chien Chuan Association and Wu Chien Chuan's own Daughter. Is it really credible that they would 'create a form' claim it is the original form unless it actually was? That they disclosed this in 1982 because finally it was safe to do so after the Cultural revolution was over and because they did not want it to die out unless it really was Wu Chien Chuan’s form. They believed 'Yang Style fast form' already had died out just as many other styles of martial Arts had in China due to the purges of 'Feudalistic practices' by the Communist Government.

Knowing their character and dedication to Tai Chi and to Wu Chien Chuan’s legacy I have no trouble in accepting that the fast Form is genuine, but also consider this:

It is very credible that a top practitioner of an art comes up with his own advancements after 50 or 60 years of practicing. It happens all the time in the martial arts and explains wonderfully the wide variety of differences that we see in Taiji. Both of Yang Luchan's sons, if we can trust these accounts, came up with their own developments ("middle frame", "small frame"), so did Quan You, so did Yang Chengfu and Wu Jianquan. Hence my POV that everbody really only learns the form of his teacher and not a historical form that has been practiced many generations before in the exact same way.
I'ld also suggest to stay away from statements like "the top disciple" in order to stay objective in this discussion.

Point 4

What would their motivation be?

Was it fame? No, they are already famous and already the heads of Wu Style tai Chi in China.

Was it money? Well hardly. They never exploited their Tai Chi and as far as they were concerned already knew the full system.

As Dr Yan has already mentioned in this thread they had preserved a number of sets either lost or only partially remembered by other lines of Wu Style Tai Chi/Tai Chi.

It's interesting to note that their Children and Adopted daughter have also not exploited their Tai Chi legacy. If it was a fame and money making exercise where are all the videos, and seminars and tours to learn fast Form from Ma Jiang Bao or Ma Hai Long or Shi mei Lin. They don't treat it that way and they don't teach it that way either.

I don't like to speculate about their personal motivations. But AFAIK there has always been a competition between different Martial Arts, different styles of Taiji and different teachers. And every particular school has it's unique perspectives why you should study at their school and not anywhere else. And don't let us deceive ourselves - From the time Taiji went "out of the door" teaching has always been more or less a business.

Point 5

If you except that all the other forms/exercises/Chi Gung and weapons forms from Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua are valid Wu Style Tai Chi passed down to them from Wu Chien Chuan, why not accept that the 'Wu Style fast Form' is the same?

We can't be sure about all of them either

Point 6

Regards Wu Chien Chuan and his time in Honk Kong. In my experience in Traditional Martial Arts. Even if he was there the full 1937 – 1942 5 years is not really that much time. So other than Wu Kung Yi I don’t think any of his Hong Kong Disciples would have reached a level were they would have been taught this form as they would not have spent enough time learning with him. They may well have never even seen it.

This is exactly the reason why I'm spending time to respond to all of this. All of these stories contain the notion that all the other practitioners are inferior. People who blindly adopted this POV often do not even know anything about the practice of the other branches.
FWIW, Wu Jianquan was not involved in the Jianquan Association in Honkong. He left that to his sons. So he was not teaching masses of student as he previously did in Beijing an Shanghai. One of his disciples for example, who became very famous in Hongkong and SE Asia was Cheng Wing Kwong. He was already a teacher of Taiji for over 15 years, when he became a disciple. He studied fulltime under master Wu during that time. Tinn Chan Lee (I don't know a lot about his Taiji) was a Yang style teacher and came to Hongkong from his residence in Hawaii, when he heard that master Wu moved to Hongkong. I guess they learned one or two things from the great master Wu Jianquan.
Ma Yueliang has been associated with master Wu for about 15 years with some discontinuities, like finishing his education in Beijing, when master Wu already lived in Shanghai, or when master Wu travelled throughout China for extended periods of time to spread the style. Master Wu also had a lot of commitments to teach influential outsiders. So counting years doesn't seem to be the way to go.

Point 7,
Why at the end of your life go to all the trouble of teaching, demonstrating and creating a form (and producing a book about it) that was not genuine? Why would you bother? Why would you want to create all that trouble for uourself, your family and your students/disciples unless it was the real thing?

It's also a great motivation to promote one's own lifetime achievements. But all of this belongs to the realm of speculation.

[Doc Stier]

"The term "Taiji Long Boxing" or 太极长拳 IMO denoted the quality of continuity as it has been described in several classics. In the Taijiquan Jing for example, Changquan is likened to a great river."

".... you can theoretically "disclose" anything as a previously secret practice...."

"It is very credible that a top practitioner of an art comes up with his own advancements after 50 or 60 years of practicing. It happens all the time in the martial arts and explains wonderfully the wide variety of differences that we see in Taiji. Both of Yang Luchan's sons, if we can trust these accounts, came up with their own developments ("middle frame", "small frame"), so did Quan You, so did Yang Chengfu and Wu Jianquan. Hence my POV that everbody really only learns the form of his teacher and not a historical form that has been practiced many generations before in the exact same way."

"....there has always been a competition between different Martial Arts, different styles of Taiji and different teachers. And every particular school has it's unique perspectives why you should study at their school and not anywhere else. And don't let us deceive ourselves - From the time Taiji went "out of the door" teaching has always been more or less a business."

"All of these stories contain the notion that all the other practitioners are inferior."

And once again, as always "....all of this belongs to the realm of speculation."

Great points and an excellent summation!

Doc

[Yuen-Ming]

The problem with Ma Yueliang's claims [...]

I think that drawing Mr. Yan's claims back on the late Master Ma' shoulders is not fair so I'd like to give some background that most friends in the west might have missed.

When Mr. Yan started to publish his "Wu family history" on some chinese magazines a few years ago he basically disclosed all *family affairs* in public and disparaged most and every other master in order to raise his own.
His first articles raised the eyebrows and more of a lot of people in China, some of which demanded his public apologies. Not happy enough, he raided with friends the houses of those who publicly reprimanded him - some of those in their seventies - in an attempt to "test their skills".

The Ma group in Shanghai immediately took the distance from Mr. Yan explaining that he was not a disciple of Master Ma but that he studied with his (now ex) wife Shi Meilin, an adopted daughter of Ma, who also migrated to New Zeland.

Later Mr. Yan re-published his "Wu family history" in book form, adding material copied verbatim from various magazines in China. So much so that he copied even the typographical mistakes from a number of articles and, needless to say, without ever quoting any source.

Now it seems he is ready to publish a new book, this time in english ...

YM

[cdobe]

Thank you very much for the additional information Yuen-Ming. Very enlightening. Should set some people around here rethinking about the authority of some of the claims that have been made here.

I'ld like to add that I do differentiate between the claims of the Ma family and Stephen Yan's claims. There is indeed a huge difference between the two and one has to cleanly seperate them. You make a very important point here.
My sentence, however, still holds true since I refer specifically to the writings of grandmaster Ma Yueliang and some of the interviews he has given.

CD

The problem with Ma Yueliang's claims [...]

I think that drawing Mr. Yan's claims back on the late Master Ma' shoulders is not fair so I'd like to give some background that most friends in the west might have missed.

When Mr. Yan started to publish his "Wu family history" on some chinese magazines a few years ago he basically disclosed all *family affairs* in public and disparaged most and every other master in order to raise his own.
His first articles raised the eyebrows and more of a lot of people in China, some of which demanded his public apologies. Not happy enough, he raided with friends the houses of those who publicly reprimanded him - some of those in their seventies - in an attempt to "test their skills".

The Ma group in Shanghai immediately took the distance from Mr. Yan explaining that he was not a disciple of Master Ma but that he studied with his (now ex) wife Shi Meilin, an adopted daughter of Ma, who also migrated to New Zeland.

Later Mr. Yan re-published his "Wu family history" in book form, adding material copied verbatim from various magazines in China. So much so that he copied even the typographical mistakes from a number of articles and, needless to say, without ever quoting any source.

Now it seems he is ready to publish a new book, this time in english ...

YM

[CaliG]

You ask how they could leave Hongkong during the attack ? It happens all the time when cities are under fire. Look at the invasion of Iraq or the recent war in Georgia. There are always endless convoys of refugees. I also think that the Wu family was well informed before the actual attacks since they had good connections to high ranking officials. The same happened when they left the hard-fought Beijing in 1928 to settle in the "Paris of the East" (Shanghai) and likewise they left Shanghai just in time before the Japanese were attacking.

At this point I have very little interest in the fast form debate. People are going to believe what they believe and search for every bit of evidence to back that up and ignore the rest, a bit like religion.

But I have to strongly disagree with this historical premise. I'm not sure how WWII history is taught in Germany, but no one knew about the attacks on Americans in Pearl Harbor or the British in Hong Kong, which started the day after Pearl Harbor. They were as much as a surprise as the invasion of Poland and Russia by the nazis.

Here's a map of Hitler's accomplishments in Eastern Europe up to Decemeber 5, 1941.



Many historians argue that the reason why the Japanese launched those attacks on December 7 & 8 was in large part because of the Germans' success in Eastern Europe. The Japanese who also believed themselves to the be superior race were not to be outdone.

I don't mean to step on any toes, German, Japanese or otherwise...but I don't like it when people try to alter WWII history to fit their own needs.

[cdobe]

I don't know why some people in the US are not able to read and comprehend even in their own language. Didn't you have English at school ?
I wrote that there are many examples where people flee from their cities during or prior to attacks and I guessed that if there had been any indications of an upcoming attack they might have been advised to leave in time. What's the problem ? Do you really have a point here or did you just grasp the opportunity to hate a little on me and my nationality?

You ask how they could leave Hongkong during the attack ? It happens all the time when cities are under fire. Look at the invasion of Iraq or the recent war in Georgia. There are always endless convoys of refugees. I also think that the Wu family was well informed before the actual attacks since they had good connections to high ranking officials. The same happened when they left the hard-fought Beijing in 1928 to settle in the "Paris of the East" (Shanghai) and likewise they left Shanghai just in time before the Japanese were attacking.

At this point I have very little interest in the fast form debate. People are going to believe what they believe and search for every bit of evidence to back that up and ignore the rest, a bit like religion.

But I have to strongly disagree with this historical premise. I'm not sure how WWII history is taught in Germany, but no one knew about the attacks on Americans in Pearl Harbor or the British in Hong Kong, which started the day after Pearl Harbor. They were as much as a surprise as the invasion of Poland and Russia by the nazis.

Here's a map of Hitler's accomplishments in Eastern Europe up to Decemeber 5, 1941.



Many historians argue that the reason why the Japanese launched those attacks on December 7 & 8 was in large part because of the Germans' success in Eastern Europe. The Japanese who also believed themselves to the be superior race were not to be outdone.

I don't mean to step on any toes, German, Japanese or otherwise...but I don't like it when people try to alter WWII history to fit their own needs.

[CaliG]

If you're going to bring up points that you can't debate without getting emotional you shouldn't bring them up. No one's attacking your nationality. You can't talk about the war without bringing up the alliance between Germany and Japan. (In fact I believe the second world war was just a continuation of the first one and all or most of Europe is to blame for that one.)

I have degree is in history and I have done a lot research in this area. The point I'm disagreeing with is where you said they probably knew about the invasion because they knew high officials.

Where did you hear that the Chinese had access to Japanese military intelligence? Did they also know about the impending attack on Pearl Harbor too?

My point is this people believe what they choose to believe and if they can't back it up they'll make it up, that goes for everyone.

Sorry if you have taken anything I've said on this thread as being personally directed at you, your nationality or the styles that you do. After living as an American in Europe during the invasion of Iraq and the PRC for a few years my skin has gotten pretty thick, I sometimes I forget other people are a bit more sensitive about those things.

Cdobe I have nothing against you or your country, in fact I think I'd rather have a German passport over American one these days. We just disagree on a few things. I also think we can disagree without turning everything into personal attacks, but perhaps not on this thread. Btw, I think a real man would apologize for all the times you've attacked me if not today then tomorrow.

Anyway time to train.

[cdobe]

If you're going to bring up points that you can't debate without getting emotional you shouldn't bring them up. No one's attacking your nationality. You can't talk about the war without bringing up the alliance between Germany and Japan. (In fact I believe the second world war was just a continuation of the first one and all or most of Europe is to blame for that one.)

Your posting had little to do with the thread and I found it very interesting that you chose to come up with the German invasions of WWII. You also provocatively asked what Germans learn at school about WWII. C'mon

I have degree is in history and I have done a lot research in this area. The point I'm disagreeing with is where you said they probably knew about the invasion because they knew high officials.

I didn't say that they "probably knew about the invasion", I only guessed that this could have been a possibility due to their good connections to the Chinese Nationalists.

Where did you hear that the Chinese had access to Japanese military intelligence? Did they also know about the impending attack on Pearl Harbor too?

My point is this people believe what they choose to believe and if they can't back it up they'll make it up, that goes for everyone.

Again, I didn't say anything like that. But the attack of Hongkong was anticipated long before it actually happened . And prior to any big expedition there need to be a lot of preparations, so the Chinese intelligence might have had some clues beforehand. I don't know. It's all speculation. And I made that very clear in the posting you object.

Sorry if you have taken anything I've said on this thread as being personally directed at you, your nationality or the styles that you do. After living as an American in Europe during the invasion of Iraq and the PRC for a few years my skin has gotten pretty thick, I sometimes I forget other people are a bit more sensitive about those things.

Cdobe I have nothing against you or your country, in fact I think I'd rather have a German passport over American one these days. We just disagree on a few things. I also think we can disagree without turning everything into personal attacks, but perhaps not on this thread. Btw, I think a real man would apologize for all the times you've attacked me if not today then tomorrow.

Anyway time to train.

Well, I consider myself a real man. But I don't feel that there is anything I've said or done to you, I'ld need to apologize for

[CaliG]

I guess you're just too sensitive for me to try to talk to.

Because when I respond to you, you take it personally. I encouraged you to take your research to China and you took that as an insult.

I really don't know what they in Germany. Why don't you tell us?

As far as the apology you know what I'm talking about. But it's not really for me I'm fine, it was more a chance for you to redeem yourself.

[GrahamB]

The problem with Ma Yueliang's claims [...]

I think that drawing Mr. Yan's claims back on the late Master Ma' shoulders is not fair so I'd like to give some background that most friends in the west might have missed.

When Mr. Yan started to publish his "Wu family history" on some chinese magazines a few years ago he basically disclosed all *family affairs* in public and disparaged most and every other master in order to raise his own.
His first articles raised the eyebrows and more of a lot of people in China, some of which demanded his public apologies. Not happy enough, he raided with friends the houses of those who publicly reprimanded him - some of those in their seventies - in an attempt to "test their skills".

The Ma group in Shanghai immediately took the distance from Mr. Yan explaining that he was not a disciple of Master Ma but that he studied with his (now ex) wife Shi Meilin, an adopted daughter of Ma, who also migrated to New Zeland.

Later Mr. Yan re-published his "Wu family history" in book form, adding material copied verbatim from various magazines in China. So much so that he copied even the typographical mistakes from a number of articles and, needless to say, without ever quoting any source.

Now it seems he is ready to publish a new book, this time in english ...

YM

Thank you for that background information - it is very revealing, but sadly not very surprising from reading what he's written here.

G