Anjing..

[wushutiger]

John Wang, Anjing is not spiritual. It becomes a spiritual discussion only when someone cannot describe it, and if you cannot describe it......

Anjing is a natural progression, and when I say progression I mean your techniques IMPROVE. So why anyone would not want to improve I dont know. It doesnt mean that your techniques are no longer useful, it means they have started to become EXTREMELY effective and by that I mean efficient. Efficient in application, efficient in the use of your own power etc etc etc.

Beegs, "internalizing stages" means what exactly? Are you saying XY only has "internal elements" after mingjing?? The point of this discussion is for people to tell us about their personal experience, not read and quote a book. I think there are some very solid posts in this topic already that do have people discussing their experiences.

[johnwang]

Efficient in application,

What kind of application are you talking about? Could you give some examples on this? It's very hard to picture it without an opponent as your Anjing receiver.

[wushutiger]

John, maybe this was lost in translation, effective in application means that one effectively APPLIES a technique. In other words, he uses said technique in a more effective manner..... It doesnt mean the movement changes per se.

[Pandrews1982]

This thread is a funny one I think as said before a lot of this begins to happen naturally anyway and to try to focus too much on these things you'll end up over complicating them.

In terms of effectiveness in application I see no reason why Ming Jin is not as effective as An Jin or Hua Jin.

In general terms a more structural strike with less relaxation and ability to transmit energy wont have the same acceleration as a relaxed strike and therefore theoretically will have less power. That's all good if you are hitting a bag, the An jin strike if done correctly should have more power than the Ming jin strike. But in application with another person more variables come into play. When asked by someone "how much power do you need?" i've always answered "none". Because if you are able to judge where the opponent will move to you can just stick out a limb and they can walk into it (John would say this is borrowing force), in this case you might describe that as Ming Jin level because it is all structure (but there was no obvious expression of applied force ).

If you are able to apply Ming Jin (structural striking) then it can be just as effective as An or Hua jin IMO.

This is why i would argue these three levels relate only to power/force generation by the practitioner themselves and remove all the other posible variables. The positioning, timing, strategy aspects of fighting add layers onto these layers too and you can begin to overcomplicate things really quickly. If you define any strike which has no obvious expression of force as An jin or hua jin then I think you're on the wrong track, because a strike with no obvious expression of force (as explained above) may be purely the result of position and timing and not of any internal body method on the part of the practitioner.

You need to be quite careful to distinguish in your training, what is the result of your structure, movement, position, timing and how these combine, then when a opponent (or more than one) is added you also need to factor in what is the result of their actions etc. too.

I think the main difference in feeling you get from Ming Jin level and An Jin level when striking is that at Ming Jin level you are aware that you are using effort and energy to produce an effect. At An Jin level when you get it right it feels like you didn't do anything. At Hua jin level I'd argue it feels like you have done something but its not usually through physical effort. Why does this matter? If you are a strapping young man with lots of energy it probably matters not one bit, by all means use your external strength and force to full effect. If you are smaller, weaker, slower, unfit, old etc. then it becomes a way to even the odds a little.

I'm a small guy and in terms of physical strength i cannot compete with most of my training partners, the fact that i can hit fairly hard is down to efficiency rather than effort IMO and this means my lack of strength is less of a disadvantage. This is without trying to factor in my ability to read the opponent, evade, counter, use timing etc.

In terms of a metaphor - I see Ming Jin like you pick up a rock and just slam it into the opponent's head. An jin you throw the rock at them. Hua Jin you use a slingshot to fire it at them. All three may get the same effect or outcome but they show different ways of doing this.

[wushutiger]

Pandrews, in response to your statement: "In terms of effectiveness in application I see no reason why Ming Jin is not as effective as An Jin or Hua Jin."

Let me ask you this. Do you think a beginner is as effective at employing the same technique as an intermediate or advanced practitioner would be? If you answer no, tell me why not?

This is the difference between these stages actually....... At An Jing your power is focussed at a more precise point in impact, also, your body work will assist you to deliver the strike like this, and utilizing power from your entire body as opposed to limb reliance. In order to produce this complete type of power at the right point then elements such as positioning (as in positioning of limbs, waist, body etc), timing (when different parts of your body do what etc) are very important. It simply isnt evolving if you are only focussing on power exertion alone.

Actually, the rest of your posts does indeed define to quite an extent elements of An Jing, albeit unintentionally.......

ie "I'm a small guy and in terms of physical strength i cannot compete with most of my training partners, the fact that i can hit fairly hard is down to efficiency rather than effort "

[Pandrews1982]

Pandrews, in response to your statement: "In terms of effectiveness in application I see no reason why Ming Jin is not as effective as An Jin or Hua Jin."

Let me ask you this. Do you think a beginner is as effective at employing the same technique as an intermediate or advanced practitioner would be? If you answer no, tell me why not?

I try not to think in terms of techniques but rather principles. For a set movement I believe it is not particularly difficult to teach someone over a relatively short period of time to have a good form and ability to do the movement. At a certain point the ability to perform that movement at a greater efficiency diminishes so that the longer one spends the less gains you get from it. What then matters is the ability to be able to vary the movement and use it when needed.

In employing a technique or movement I do not think the method of power generation is the primary concern, timing, speed, position these are the things you need to look at to be able to get your strike to the target, not how that strike will manifest when it may or may not get there.

This is the difference between these stages actually....... At An Jing your power is focussed at a more precise point in impact, also, your body work will assist you to deliver the strike like this, and utilizing power from your entire body as opposed to limb reliance.

I don't think that limb reliance is something which is encouraged at any stage in xing yi training.

In order to produce this complete type of power at the right point then elements such as positioning (as in positioning of limbs, waist, body etc), timing (when different parts of your body do what etc) are very important. It simply isnt evolving if you are only focussing on power exertion alone.

But do these things relate to what you are calling An Jin. I don't think so. I think that the fact the word Jin (trained/combative force) is used it is looking at how you generate power from yourself not how you get in the right place to use that power. but that's my take on it and its probably pointless trying to discuss this between us if we have two different views of what An Jin is

Actually, the rest of your posts does indeed define to quite an extent elements of An Jing, albeit unintentionally.......

ie "I'm a small guy and in terms of physical strength i cannot compete with most of my training partners, the fact that i can hit fairly hard is down to efficiency rather than effort "

Maybe the master should enlighten us lowly mortals then, as we are stumbling around and unintentionally expressing our own opinions instead of those which you have predefined as correct.

As per my original post, these three stages are not things which we particularly define in my school, its been interesting seeing what others think but i'm going to drop out of the discussion now, i don't see any further benefit.

[wushutiger]

I try not to think in terms of techniques but rather principles. For a set movement I believe it is not particularly difficult to teach someone over a relatively short period of time to have a good form and ability to do the movement. At a certain point the ability to perform that movement at a greater efficiency diminishes so that the longer one spends the less gains you get from it. What then matters is the ability to be able to vary the movement and use it when needed.

So basically you would say that a rookie boxer throws a hook with the same ability as an experienced boxer? Usage aside, I mean from the technique itself.

I don't think that limb reliance is something which is encouraged at any stage in xing yi training.

You know exactly what I am referring to. Whether you want to admit it or not, all practitioners start by relying on the force generated from their arms primarily in XY. Hence the saying "ming is in the hands, an is in the elbows, hua is in the body"

But do these things relate to what you are calling An Jin. I don't think so. I think that the fact the word Jin (trained/combative force) is used it is looking at how you generate power from yourself not how you get in the right place to use that pow

You misunderstood what I referred to when I said "power at the right point". I am not referring to a target being the point, I am referring to the precise point within a movement that you issue power at. So yes, it fits in with your description of the definition of Jin.

Maybe the master should enlighten us lowly mortals then, as we are stumbling around and unintentionally expressing our own opinions instead of those which you have predefined as correct.

As per my original post, these three stages are not things which we particularly define in my school, its been interesting seeing what others think but i'm going to drop out of the discussion now, i don't see any further benefit.

Thanks for being rude, let me retort by saying a teacher who cannot seem to even try to describe stages of training which are absolutely existent and a neccessary part of training will have a very difficult timeguiding his students there...unless of course he wasnt guided there in the first place.....

[GrahamB]

Pandrews, in response to your statement: "In terms of effectiveness in application I see no reason why Ming Jin is not as effective as An Jin or Hua Jin."

Let me ask you this. Do you think a beginner is as effective at employing the same technique as an intermediate or advanced practitioner would be? If you answer no, tell me why not?

The next time I get knocked the fuck out by a "Ming Jin" punch, I'll be sure to remind the offender that they are low level and unworthy of being called Internet, er sorry, I mean "Internal". Then I'll call for an ambulance.

[SnowLeopard]

You all talk big big things like "Hua Jin", "Transformation stage", "chasing the wind following the moon" and blah blah...but still fear MMAers. Hmmmm interesting. Can't decide whether I should conclude it as height of hypocrisy or mere stupidity.

[GrahamB]

You all talk big big things like "Hua Jin", "Transformation stage", "chasing the wind following the moon" and blah blah...but still fear MMAers. Hmmmm interesting. Can't decide whether I should conclude it as height of hypocrisy or mere stupidity.

How on earth are you still on this forum m'lad?

[SnowLeopard]

^^^^

I am sorry to tell you. But you have still not grown up.

[GrahamB]

I could be your dad.

[SnowLeopard]

^^^

You are hardly your own son's dad.

[Ian]

about time somebody used the banhammer, no?

[GrahamB]

.... bye bye fuck wit.