Did ancient Chinese really believe in "invest in lose"?

[D_Glenn]

I think there is a misunderstanding of what 'emptiness' actually is.

It's not just empty space that surrounds the fight. So just getting out of the way, or pulling an opponent off to the side is not 'Lead into emptiness'.

Emptiness is walking down the stairs in one's own house in pitch darkness, you've paid attention to the surroundings and are completely positive that you've reached the last step and should be stepping on solid ground, but you were wrong, there was one more step and you nearly kill yourself trying to deal with only 6 inches of empty space.

That is what emptiness is. The opponent needs to create their own sense of it by being completely convinced that you're there providing something he can attack and at the last instant he realizes too late that nothing is there.

A good Taiji practitioner is only a facilitator who 'Introduces' ( 引進 Yinjin ) the opponent to [the opponent's own sensation of] 'Emptiness' ( 落空 Luokong ).


Again showing how the feeling of superiority and over-confidence needs to be built up in the opponent in order to achieve the end goal.


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[bailewen]

A good Taiji practitioner is only a facilitator who 'Introduces' ( 引進 Yinjin ) the opponent to [the opponent's own sensation of] 'Emptiness' ( 落空 Luokong ).

Never seen that written that way before. In all the texts I am familiar with it is 引劲 not 引进. I do like the play on words there but, to me anyways, it reads more like a tongue in cheek comment on the concept than a direct presentation of the concept. I strongly agree with this part though:

...showing how the feeling of superiority and over-confidence needs to be built up in the opponent in order to achieve the end goal.

I also agree with the far better presentation of "into emptiness" that you have provided.

Mainly I just dropped back in though to emphasize again how profoundly different yielding is from leading.

internalenthusiast said:

...i think one has to yield, in order to lead. (at least in this context) ....

I would say sometimes that is true but not always. You must no more yield to lead than you must turn right to get to the post office in your local town. When I said yielding was related to leading I only view it as a subset of yielding. Sometimes you turn right, sometimes left. Depends on where you are in relation to your goal.

Real leading takes place at the level of intent. If an opponent has respect for your punching power, just raising a hand up suddenly will lead their intent in that direction. More on point with Glen's comments, presenting an apparent obvious opening will lead a person to attack strongly at that point. If you have a wickedly powerful side kick, when facing off with a Shuai Jiao guy, you may want to intentionally start to circle walk, crossing that front leg so that you can side kick him with it when he shoots in for the sweep. It's not "leading into emptiness" but it is leading and is not yielding.

The word "yin"(being discussed here as "lead") has a meaning closer to "attract". The connotations are not like the way you lead a horse by taking the reigns and walking along in front of it pulling the reigns in the direction you want to lead it. "Yin"/lead/引 is more like leading a horse by giving it a bite of an apple or a couple of sugar cubes and then walking along with the apple in your hand. It's the same character used in the word for "attractiveness"/吸引力/xi yin li; literally "sucking in-leading(towards yourself)-power.

So "leading force into emptiness" is not about physically redirecting an incoming attack. It's about guiding the opponents movements the way a good general will manipulate his enemy into leading his forces into a trap. Yielding (a strategic retreat) is only one of many of the tools a general could use to lead the enemy into a bad situation.

You know, I still haven't even come across the term "yielding" anywhere in the Taiji classics. It's probably bouncing around there but not as a big idea. It's implied in songs telling you not to directly oppose force and my teacher certainly uses the word plenty in practice but it's only one small part of the greater strategy of "leading".

[Void]

D Glen - good post. I've used the stairs analogy myself.

[internalenthusiast]

thanks D-Glenn. clearly stated (as usual), and i agree with what you say.

bailewen: good points i think. i'm used to thinking of that kind of leading (when not touching) as "drawing an attack", but i think we'd be talking about the same thing.

The connotations are not like the way you lead a horse by taking the reigns and walking along in front of it pulling the reigns in the direction you want to lead it. "Yin"/lead/引 is more like leading a horse by giving it a bite of an apple or a couple of sugar cubes and then walking along with the apple in your hand. It's the same character used in the word for "attractiveness"/吸引力/xi yin li; literally "sucking in-leading(towards yourself)-power.

thanks for the explication of the chinese characters.

[D_Glenn]

You know, I still haven't even come across the term "yielding" anywhere in the Taiji classics. It's probably bouncing around there but not as a big idea. It's implied in songs telling you not to directly oppose force and my teacher certainly uses the word plenty in practice but it's only one small part of the greater strategy of "leading".

What about: She Ji Cong Ren - "forget yourself and obey (follow, yield) your opponent";

or the Baguazhang version of it: 舍已从人顺敌情 she yi cong ren shun diqing "Forget yourself, yield to the opponent, move along with the enemy's tactics."

***

I think I may have found the original quote: When they asked ZMQ how someone so small and light could be so skilled he said the answer is 「讓、學吃虧、鬆淨，自然有勁出來」 "To yield (rang) study 'being at a complete disadvantage' (chikui), be completely relaxed (song), and one's natural strength (jin) will come out."

( Also I hope you know I'm not being pedantic towards you with the Chinese, I'm only spelling everything out, elementary style, for the benefit of other RSF members. Good thread. Learning a lot of things on this one.)

***

There's a lot of information (on the net), similar to what C.J.Wang said, about the using 吃虧 chikui (disadvantage) to get the 佔便宜 zhanpianyi (advantage) which will give one the ability and experience to be able to 引進落空 yinjin luokong (introduce to emptiness).


I don't know where the difference of jin/enter and jin/energy comes from.



.

[Doc Stier]

D_Glenn:

I agree with your example of 'emptiness', as it relates to IMA's. Most people don't realize how much they regularly depend upon the immovable support of solid objects such as chairs, closed doors, walls, steps, and the bodies of other people to maintain their personal balance and body control. Thus, when leaning against an unlatched door that is assumed to be closed, they fall into 'emptiness'. When a chair is pulled out from beneath them just as they are about to sit down, they fall into 'emptiness'. In these or any other similar examples, the expected support of something solid and immovable produces confidence in the anticipated end result of the action at hand.

In the same way, when someone fully commits their body weight and momentum, their strength, force, and intention to physically attacking another person, but unexpectedly finds nothing solid to support them at the last instant, they suddenly find themselves in a state of complete 'emptiness', and oftentimes fall into or onto other solid surfaces, receiving injuries in doing so, even when totally untouched by human hands.

If such a person is merely imbalanced, but still on their feet, effective offensive countermeasures are easily applied at this time, since the attacker hasn't yet re-established a stable stance and center of gravity. As a result, attempted defenses against these offensive countermeasures are either difficult or impossible to employ successfully at this time. It ends as a sort of instant karma...an immediate negative return on a bad idea and bad investment of energy and action.

[johnwang]

I think there is a misunderstanding of what 'emptiness' actually is.

It's not just empty space that surrounds the fight. So just getting out of the way, or pulling an opponent off to the side is not 'Lead into emptiness'.

I don't understand what your are saying "It's not just empty space that surrounds the fight". When your opponent attacks, you can:

- move back, remain distance
- move back, deflect his attacking arm or leg.
- move back, deflect his entire body.
- move to the side (left or right), let him pass through.
- move to the side, deflect his arm or leg.
- move to the side, deflect his entire body (as showing in that clip).
- jump up in the air, ...
- sink into the ground, ...

What else can you do? As long as your opponent is not hitting you , he is hitting the space "surround" you. Can you provide a clip to show the difference?

[Void]

If such a person is merely imbalanced, but still on their feet, effective offensive countermeasures are easily applied at this time, since the attacker hasn't yet re-established a stable stance and center of gravity. As a result, attempted defenses against these offensive countermeasures are either difficult or impossible to employ successfully at this time.

When the person has lost his balance through your leading he'll to stop himself from falling, he must follow you to move. So then you do not need to use force to move them, he is simply moved by your control and his own force. Jie li Da Li.

Its a rare skill - I've not yet learnt to resolve its failures when under pressure.

[bailewen]

What about: She Ji Cong Ren - "forget yourself and obey (follow, yield) your opponent";

or the Baguazhang version of it: 舍已从人顺敌情 she yi cong ren shun diqing "Forget yourself, yield to the opponent, move along with the enemy's tactics."

You can't really find a dictionary anywhere and would be hard pressed to find a translator even who translated either of those terms as "yielding". It's not like there's not a straight up word for it. That would be "rang"让 or 讓 if you prefer traditional. I already stated openly that:

It's implied in songs ....

The idea is there all over the place but it's just not very explicit. I really have to take issue with interpreting "cong-ren" 从人 as meaning yielding. Just as in my exposition on leading, it may involve yielding...or it may not. It's more standard meaning is, "to act according to someone elses needs or actions" or "to work together with someone".

A little classical Chinese background on the term:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/2781463.htm

Even a typical, non-martial arts interpretation of "she ji cong ren" shows how the idea of yielding it only implied:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/232805.htm

I think I may have found the original quote: When they asked ZMQ how someone so small and light could be so skilled he said the answer is 「讓、學吃虧、鬆淨，自然有勁出來」 "To yield (rang) study 'being at a complete disadvantage' (chikui), be completely relaxed (song), and one's natural strength (jin) will come out."

Now that's a gem and I'll give you that there, CMC is obviously discussing yielding. Present a solid quote and I will change my opinion.

( Also I hope you know I'm not being pedantic towards you with the Chinese, I'm only spelling everything out, elementary style, for the benefit of other RSF members. Good thread. Learning a lot of things on this one.)

lol. I though I was the one being pedantic with you.

I've never argued that yielding wasn't an important skill or that the idea is not well presented in the songs. I just don't see it directly named. The CMC quote is really nice. But I don't consider his words to be "the classics". I can still agree with them though.

[D_Glenn]

What about: She Ji Cong Ren - "forget yourself and obey (follow, yield) your opponent";

or the Baguazhang version of it: 舍已从人顺敌情 she yi cong ren shun diqing "Forget yourself, yield to the opponent, move along with the enemy's tactics."

You can't really find a dictionary anywhere and would be hard pressed to find a translator even who translated either of those terms as "yielding". It's not like there's not a straight up word for it. That would be "rang"让 or 讓 if you prefer traditional. I already stated openly that:

It's implied in songs ....

The idea is there all over the place but it's just not very explicit. I really have to take issue with interpreting "cong-ren" 从人 as meaning yielding. Just as in my exposition on leading, it may involve yielding...or it may not. It's more standard meaning is, "to act according to someone elses needs or actions" or "to work together with someone".

A little classical Chinese background on the term:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/2781463.htm

Even a typical, non-martial arts interpretation of "she ji cong ren" shows how the idea of yielding it only implied:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/232805.htm

I just wanted to see what you thought of 'cong ren'. Agree though on the translation of 'yield'. It doesn't quite work for me.

I think I may have found the original quote: When they asked ZMQ how someone so small and light could be so skilled he said the answer is 「讓、學吃虧、鬆淨，自然有勁出來」 "To yield (rang) study 'being at a complete disadvantage' (chikui), be completely relaxed (song), and one's natural strength (jin) will come out."

Now that's a gem and I'll give you that there, CMC is obviously discussing yielding. Present a solid quote and I will change my opinion.

Came from 陶炳祥 Tao Bingxiang, a student of ZMQ: http://city.udn.com/55491/3485610

( Also I hope you know I'm not being pedantic towards you with the Chinese, I'm only spelling everything out, elementary style, for the benefit of other RSF members. Good thread. Learning a lot of things on this one.)

lol. I though I was the one being pedantic with you.

It's all good. I like being forced to think and find things I would otherwise probably just ignore.

I've never argued that yielding wasn't an important skill or that the idea is not well presented in the songs. I just don't see it directly named. The CMC quote is really nice. But I don't consider his words to be "the classics". I can still agree with them though.

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the ZMQ and I'm not by any means trying to stick up for his way of thinking. I'm just interested in finding out what is what. And more importantly, what it's not.


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[taiwandeutscher]

A good Taiji practitioner is only a facilitator who 'Introduces' ( 引進 Yinjin ) the opponent to [the opponent's own sensation of] 'Emptiness' ( 落空 Luokong ).

Never seen that written that way before. In all the texts I am familiar with it is 引劲 not 引进. .....

Bailewen, opposite over here. Never saw the writing you gave, always like D-Glenn quoted. But his extension of she yi cong ren, I also never read in TJQ material. Is that a Bagua thing?

ZMQ is hard to judge, when you only see what many of his followers do today, especially in the west. But he got his stuff, when you see how some of his indoors train/ed here in SEA.

As often mentioned, it seems clear to me that ZMQ taught differently, the hippie stuff I learnt 30 yrs ago in Amsterdam and something like the long pole here in Taiwan. Wayne H. suggested that the combat home of ZMQ is Malaysia. That was true, but I hear things changed there, too. Wayne, any update on conditions over there?

Here in Taiwan, we have several ZMQ schools, where you can go full throttle. But of course, we also have hunch backs and pure dancers in masses.

[Doc Stier]

I posted this elsewhere, but some of it may be relevant to this discussion of 'emptiness' as well, especially as it pertains to fighting without fighting.

[johnwang]

Can someone show any clip about different "lead into emptiness" other than the one that I have posted?

[bailewen]

A good Taiji practitioner is only a facilitator who 'Introduces' ( 引進 Yinjin ) the opponent to [the opponent's own sensation of] 'Emptiness' ( 落空 Luokong ).

Never seen that written that way before. In all the texts I am familiar with it is 引劲 not 引进. .....

Bailewen, opposite over here. Never saw the writing you gave, always like D-Glenn quoted.

Interesting. I'll pull some books off the shelf later to check it out. I just did a quick baidu and found people using it both ways. I suppose I could be confused on that one.

Meanwhile....

For John,

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/jISEP2MQuQ8/

[wayne hansen]

A good Taiji practitioner is only a facilitator who 'Introduces' ( 引進 Yinjin ) the opponent to [the opponent's own sensation of] 'Emptiness' ( 落空 Luokong ).

Never seen that written that way before. In all the texts I am familiar with it is 引劲 not 引进. .....

Bailewen, opposite over here. Never saw the writing you gave, always like D-Glenn quoted. But his extension of she yi cong ren, I also never read in TJQ material. Is that a Bagua thing?

ZMQ is hard to judge, when you only see what many of his followers do today, especially in the west. But he got his stuff, when you see how some of his indoors train/ed here in SEA.

As often mentioned, it seems clear to me that ZMQ taught differently, the hippie stuff I learnt 30 yrs ago in Amsterdam and something like the long pole here in Taiwan. Wayne H. suggested that the combat home of ZMQ is Malaysia. That was true, but I hear things changed there, too. Wayne, any update on conditions over there?

Here in Taiwan, we have several ZMQ schools, where you can go full throttle. But of course, we also have hunch backs and pure dancers in masses.

you are right the overall standard has dropped ,however there are still some warriors about.