Leg strength and taking hits

[kshurika]

I like topics such as this one; in which I disagree with almost everything stated in it. That way, I don't have to waste valuable time answering points - time that could better be employed reading comic books, saving bits of string on a giant ball, or practicing my chainsaw juggling.

Thankfully, however, I've learned to quit hitting heavy bags and hit trees instead, because trees are just like humans.

...a heavy bag will not move. That's not good...

...A bag will also move easily.

Soooo, which is it, Jonathan?

[Ian]

It's getting to be an old,hackneyed statement, but no one's won a fight standing in ZZ.

Solid argument.

[Void]

No ones one a fight through any conditioning exercise. Let's drop skipping and push ups.

[Ian]

Crap, now I have to drop skipping as well?

Why didn't anyone tell me sooner*!?

*that nobody has ever won a boxing match by skipping on the spot.

[jonathan.bluestein]

...a heavy bag will not move. That's not good...

...A bag will also move easily.

Soooo, which is it, Jonathan?

You got me here
Wrote it in the middle of the night, if that excuse counts

First one should be more in the lines of "a heavy bag will not vibrate much, or show signs of of power-transfer".
Second one was trying to further point out the fact that the bag has no root/grounding, so it can be pushed. Pushing is usually ineffective for fighting (boxing is different cause you want to push your opponent in the corner and manipulate him around the ring), and training pushing something is no good (this criticism is common here when talking about push-hands).

Changed it. Thanks.

[jonathan.bluestein]

No ones one a fight through any conditioning exercise. Let's drop skipping and push ups.

I am of the opinion that ZZ has more to do with the fighting mechanics of IMA than pushups have to do with boxing. Actually, Hun Yuan ZZ variations may also have to do more with the body-mechanics of boxing than pushups. In that sense, ZZ borders between conditioning and actually training fighting - meaning it's, in my opinion, an equivalent (in terms of its relation to a style's fighting method) to hitting bags or partner sensitivity drills. So its half conditioning and half actual practical fighting training, while push ups are pure conditiong, just like pullups or sledgehammer tire bashing - stuff that don't directly have to do with fighting in any way, but are helping one develop power.

As I said before - people who cannot understand how ZZ relates to fighting were probably never taught the intricate Yi and/or Dan Tian methods that are contained within ZZ. This practice is by no means "still". There's lots of tiny movement going on in there, and it's not "esoteric" - it can be felt and applied.

[Mr_Wood]

Each element of Hsing I can be trained with correct breathing to the corresponding organ, the same as holding san ti, which has a direct relation to fighting application.

[Jingang]

Here is a good book on non-esoteric practice of xingyi quan :
http://www.amazon.com/Xing-Nei-Gong-Maintenance-Development/dp/0865681740

[Sprint]

I'd like to back up Jonathan here. People who rubbish ZZ just don't understand it. They think that because it seems or appears to achieve nothing that this is precisely what happens. They cannot themselves describe the process and so they speak from a position of ignorance and show themselves to be pretty arrogant SOB's so sure are they of their position.

I'm guessing those who are critical have seen ZZ badly done or it's been poorly explained. In fact you can fully internalize ZZ to the highest level without ever making reference to the concepts of dantian and qi. There is nothing esoteric about it. It is an exercise pure and simple. That means you are working muscles - lots of muscles - all at the same time - covering the whole body - over very short distances - at very high speed - in multiple directions.
Viewed from a position of ignorance it looks like you are just standing still! Well now you know.

But ZZ is not and end in itself, it is merely the beginning stage of a process. It is integral to that process, so that you cannot progress until you internalize ZZ. That process takes the skills learned in ZZ and extends them over much larger movements. The aim is to move with complete control, to have full body power always on tap. You move faster, with supreme balance and you see attacks coming the moment you opponent thinks of them. BKF puts it quite well "you reach a stage where your mind ceases to disconnect, you start noticing how other people disconnect in almost invisible, micro intervals of time. When you catch someone between a disconnect and a re-connect, a stop and a re-ignition, you will find they are frozen and defenseless."

Is n't this what fighting is all about - finding the gap in your opponents defenses?

This is a forum and explaining hard to fathom ideas, especially those that run counter to the prevailing wisdom, is not easy and all I have done is make a few big claims. I don't expect those of you with ingrained ideas that run to the contrary to accept what I am saying. But consider the possibility that your understanding is maybe wrong. If it is wrong then there is a whole world of skill training that is applicable to any martial art that you could tap into and benefit from.

[RobP2]

I'd like to back up Jonathan here. People who rubbish ZZ just don't understand it. They think that because it seems or appears to achieve nothing that this is precisely what happens. They cannot themselves describe the process and so they speak from a position of ignorance and show themselves to be pretty arrogant SOB's so sure are they of their position.

That's rather a generalisation and a very defensive one at that. I'm sure there are some people like you describe, there are also people who have studied/trained ZZ in depth and do understand it but don't value it in quite the same way you do. I'm sure there are capable people who recommend ZZ as a good methtod, there are also others who with all the understanding of ZZ in the world cannot show themselves to be effective in any way

[Sprint]

there are also others who with all the understanding of ZZ in the world cannot show themselves to be effective in any way

By itself, in isolation, ZZ does not lead to fighting skill. Like I already said ZZ is not an end in itself, it is the first stage in a process. People who cannot themselves explain a thing, or understand it, but rubbish it none the less, are arrogant SOB's

[kshurika]

Void wrote:

No ones one a fight through any conditioning exercise.

Congratulations, Void. You've made the most wrong statement in the history of Rum Soaked Fist. Contact the administrators for your prize. It's a book on grammar.

[RobP2]

there are also others who with all the understanding of ZZ in the world cannot show themselves to be effective in any way

By itself, in isolation, ZZ does not lead to fighting skill. Like I already said ZZ is not an end in itself, it is the first stage in a process. People who cannot themselves explain a thing, or understand it, but rubbish it none the less, are arrogant SOB's

Yes, I am aware of that. And the world is full of people who cannot explain something but rubbish it, it doesn't mean that the thing being rubbished is automatically great, that's not really an argument for something - in fact it's rather arrogant to assume it is

[kshurika]

Jingang wrote:

Here is a good book on non-esoteric practice of xingyi quan :
http://www.amazon.com/Xing-Nei-Gong-Mai ... 0865681740

Careful, Jingang. Be very careful. Whenever that book is brought up on RSF, a number of disgruntled people come out of the woodwork and get extremely upset. That book has created more shitstorms here than the Bible (but not nearly as many wars).

You're right, though. It's a good book. I've met one of the authors. He seems to know his subject.


Oh...... p.s.: Did I "rubbish" ZZ? Well, either I must apologize or quit practicing it every day. I didn't rubbish anything.

[Void]

Void wrote:

No ones one a fight through any conditioning exercise.

Congratulations, Void. You've made the most wrong statement in the history of Rum Soaked Fist. Contact the administrators for your prize. It's a book on grammar.

Spell check 'correcting' a typo when posting from my phone. I was going to edit it - but people had already quotes and understood it.

Now to ask for my book