Here goes the Frantzis Ueshiba-Bagua theory

[jonathan.bluestein]

There has been some discussion on the web over the years (including here) on a theory suggested by Bruce Frantzis (and others?) regarding Morihei Ueshiba's alleged influence from Bauga, which he was said to have been probably taught somehow in China.

Well, just bumped into this picture by accident on Aikido Journal:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/images/sha ... ia_lrg.jpg
"Onisaburo (left) and Morihei Ueshiba (right) shackled in Mongolia. Taken from The Great Onisaburo Deguchi."

Yep, as critics have said - Ueshiba was imprisoned on his trip to China. Seeing this picture... Well, that kind of sealed the deal in my mind as to the possibility of Ueshiba learning something from the Chinese.

Anyone thinks otherwise?

[bailewen]

Anyone at all familiar with 20th century Chinese history is inevitably going to find Frantzis' theory completely implausible.

[SteveBonzak]

Hahahahaha! That is almost as funny as the photoshop of John Painter with his "teacher" a while back!

-Steve

[lazyboxer]

If you tell people what they want to hear, they'll always believe you.

This old chestnut has been around forever, and no-one has convincingly demonstrated the theory nor provided a shred of hard evidence for it. Ueshiba's time in Mongolia has been extensively documented and published. Don't you think aikido peeps would happily get behind the aikido-bagua hypothesis if they felt justified in doing so? All senior aikidoka I've ever discussed it with have been sceptical, usually explaining advanced aikido technique and theory as deriving from Takeda's highly secretive and guarded aikijutsu transmission.

As to whether there's a "possibility of Ueshiba learning something from the Chinese", I suspect it would probably have been t'other way round, since his skills were already highly developed by that time.

[gzregorz]

I think it would be good to ask someone like Dan or Ark about this. It seems that the Japanese had their own internal system all along but it was kept a secret.

[Sajite]

Anyone at all familiar with 20th century Chinese history is inevitably going to find Frantzis' theory completely implausible.

Wang Xiangzhai teached Yiquan to a Japanese soldier in china...

[Sajite]

I think it would be good to ask someone like Dan or Ark about this. It seems that the Japanese had their own internal system all along but it was kept a secret.

Daito.ryu has a decent number of practice that anyone would called "internal"

[RobP2]

[yusuf]

no matter what any of us say, or think of him, Frantzis actually trained with Ueshiba....

[gilbride100]

Ellis Amdur addresses this theory (and related theories) in his book "Hidden in Plain Sight":

http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy-books-on- ... -arts.html

He provides a lot more information to back up his speculations than Frantzis does, and it's not based on Ueshiba learning stuff in Manchuria.

[Daniel]

no matter what any of us say, or think of him, Frantzis actually trained with Ueshiba....

While I was still his student, I persuaded BKF to give a one-hour talk on his experiences with Ueshiba for the first time ever. Interesting stuff. We sent out info about it to more Aikido-clubs than I could count, both in Sweden and in London, and got five Aikidoka coming. The talk was given in an Aikido-club, and none of the teachers came either.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Tesshu]

Ellis Amdur addresses this theory (and related theories) in his book "Hidden in Plain Sight":

http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy-books-on- ... -arts.html

He provides a lot more information to back up his speculations than Frantzis does, and it's not based on Ueshiba learning stuff in Manchuria.

to quote the table of contents:

"Circle, Square, Triangle: How to Be O-Sensei in Sixteen Easy Steps"

[kshurika]

SteveBonzak wrote:

Hahahahaha! That is almost as funny as the photoshop of John Painter with his "teacher" a while back!

-Steve

Can anyone post a copy of this picture? I'm a big fan of Photoshop magic.

[ShortFormMike]

no matter what any of us say, or think of him, Frantzis actually trained with Ueshiba....

While I was still his student, I persuaded BKF to give a one-hour talk on his experiences with Ueshiba for the first time ever. Interesting stuff. We sent out info about it to more Aikido-clubs than I could count, both in Sweden and in London, and got five Aikidoka coming. The talk was given in an Aikido-club, and none of the teachers came either.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

Well give us the high points,Daniel.

[D_Glenn]

no matter what any of us say, or think of him, Frantzis actually trained with Ueshiba....

While I was still his student, I persuaded BKF to give a one-hour talk on his experiences with Ueshiba for the first time ever. Interesting stuff. We sent out info about it to more Aikido-clubs than I could count, both in Sweden and in London, and got five Aikidoka coming. The talk was given in an Aikido-club, and none of the teachers came either.

That's funny .

Did he mention anything about his theory at that time?

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I think it's case of someone seeing what they want to see and if the cup is already full, well then...


It's plain to see that BKF's Bagua is really the only version that looks that similar to Aikido.


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