Chinese origin/influence on Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

[Interloper]

LOL. Fair enough, Zhong Kui. Seeing as how so many people on this board were not born yet in the '60s, it's not a stretch to say, "...back in the day." Yes, I've been told that the last of the old generation of sumo guys were demonstrating such power back then. I remember reading something a few years ago, from a long-retired professional sumo-ka, to the effect that "kids these days don't understand..." the methods that made sumo so powerful. Not unlike other MAs that once had an internal component, and which now substitute muscle-flexing for lack of an internal dynamic.

[Josealb]

Interloper, i think thats the main martial arts disease of our time, that comes out of a mass learning of something. How can 1000 people "get the goods" on a type of training, when only 5 are the ones responsible for teaching it (for example)? Too many of that thousand will eventually have to substitute internals with something more easy to deal with and develop. Ive seen that in much smaller groups, here in the DR.

Its the same thing with food. You can cook with an incredible amount of detail for yourself, but cook for a thousand and it ends up like mcdonalds, like it or not.

[Interloper]

I agree 100%. Funny you should mention the food analogy, Jose. I've always thought of the personal chef vs. the cafeteria/institutional approach as well. Or overcrowded public schools vs. private schools with handpicked teachers and 1:5 (or lower) teacher-to-student ratios.

In general, the larger the group, the greater the likelihood that transmission will degrade, mediocre (or worse) students will slip through the cracks and go out into the world to teach, and there will be no effective way to monitor "quality." Add to this, the very real possibility that many existing teachers "with the goods" are holding back and not teaching what they know to the majority of their students -- something that is not new to history -- and the dissemination process is further impeded.

MAs have pretty much become institutionalized in the mainstream, and I believe that it's the tiny pockets of individuals "with the goods" who freely and openly teach what they know to small numbers of dedicated students, who will be largely responsible for keeping these special skills alive.

[edededed]

Then again, it is also a matter of natural ability - some people can see it once and understand the method, while others have to be hammered in the head with it.

Those chosen as successors usually seem to be in the first group, not the second (for example, Li Cunyi taught Shang Yunxiang just once the first time they met; in three (?) years, he had mastered these things on his own, showing to Li that Shang had something special).

[Interloper]

Ed,
I haven't met anyone yet who can "see it once and understand the method," when it comes to the dynamics of the internal. But, I do believe that you have to have drive and a certain kind of body intelligence to learn it; it takes time and a lot of patience and due diligence -- which doesn't sit well with people who want instant gratification or instant application. Which may explain why thusfar no one has shown up in the MMA competitions with it.

[edededed]

Well, "see it once and understand the (training) method," I mean. No one (I think) can use this stuff right away.

But most of the "lineage holders" of these famous styles were by all means exceptional people with exceptional talent... In a lot of ways, I have to be thankful that I have the chance to learn some of this stuff today (talentless as I am, in the old days Li Cunyi or Cheng Tinghua or whoever would have just thrown me out with the bath water...)

[Muad'dib]

I haven't met anyone yet who can "see it once and understand the method," when it comes to the dynamics of the internal.

I have.

[C.J.Wang]

I haven't met anyone yet who can "see it once and understand the method," when it comes to the dynamics of the internal.

I have.

If the person is already an experienced internal artist who's familiar with similar methods, it's not impossible.

[Interloper]

I agree with you, C.J. I'm talking about neophytes.
And, do not confuse being able to be walked through the process of "doing an internal thing" when instructed for the first time. I, and many others, have been able to do a number of the famous "qi tricks" (such as "unbendable arm") on a first visit to an IMA instructor, because that person served as a physical guide. Kind of like being able to stand up on roller skates or ice skates the first time, because an experienced person is holding your hand and sharing his balance with you.

But to actually LEARN what you are doing -- so that you can effect it at will -- is actually a very different thing and a different process, much more complex. So, Zhong-Kui, if you are talking about someone who could do the former, I don't disagree with you as I've done the same; but the latter, I'd be very surprised and impressed because even the most talented, "natural" and powerful IMArtist I know had to go through an arduous personal training process to acquire his skills.

[DeusTrismegistus]

If someone who is very talented meets someone "once" and say spends a week straight being instructed and feeling what the master was doing. Then it is concievable that person could leave and spend the next year or three practicing ingraining and learning the things they felt in that "one" session.

[Interloper]

Deus,
Yes! And in fact, that is likely how many of the luminaries in IMA learned what they learned throughout IMA history, and how many individuals now are receiving instruction and then working and working, solo, to ingrain and inculcate the skills.

[Muad'dib]

The person in question was a martial artist with a high level of skill, but not an internal martial artist. I'd have to honestly say that after a week of practice he was better than I am after years, and better than almost any other internal martial artist I have had the chance to see, and I've had the chance to see quite a few.

Interloper: Sorry, just read your post. I am referring to someone who falls under your second category. For example, after one lesson the person could wear one of those jade rings, and doing the first palm strike the ring would break in half, and fly off his hand.

[Interloper]

Heh. Well, remember in the old "Karate Kid" movie, where Daniel catches the fly, in his chopsticks, and Mr. Miyagi grunts with disgust -- "Ah, you BEGINNER'S LUCK!"

[C.J.Wang]

The person in question was a martial artist with a high level of skill, but not an internal martial artist. I'd have to honestly say that after a week of practice he was better than I am after years, and better than almost any other internal martial artist I have had the chance to see, and I've had the chance to see quite a few.

In IMA, having acute body awareness, sensitivity, and minute muscle control are crucial to a practitioner's success, and such abilities vary from person to person. So just like in any sports, there will always be a small number of talented individuals who "get it" faster than others.

Some of the best IMAists I know started out as ballet dancers and Yoga instructors -- individuals who have already trained their bodies to be supple, sensitive, aware, and balanced through certain forms of physical exercise. When they switch to IMA, it is just a matter of using those attributes differently.

I suspect that the person you mention is probably a combination of both.