"Sensing hands" VS "Push Hands"

[Ben]

I've been thinking lately about if Sensing hands would be a better translation than Push hands. I've read somewhere that sensing hands is suppose to be a valid translation. I don't speak Chinese so I was hoping some of you that do could let me know how correct a translation of Tui Shou it is.

[Bhassler]

My teacher (who is Chinese) translates it as "hand push." Considering his degree in AP style journalism in China and his two master's degrees in the US, I would say he has a better than average command of both languages. More importantly, he has a real expertise in the practice of taiji as a martial art, so the translations he makes are both accurate from a linguistic standpoint (though they may not be literal) and accurate in terms of conveying the practical meaning of the phrase. Something may be accurate from an academic standpoint but make no sense in practical application. Better to just acknowledge that the terminology is used loosely, as it is a designation for common experiences and not meant to be some deeply held and fastidiously studied scripture.

Also, I would like to point out that since my teacher has two master's degrees, he is OFFICIALLY a taiji master. 'Nuff said.

[cdobe]

I've been thinking lately about if Sensing hands would be a better translation than Push hands. I've read somewhere that sensing hands is suppose to be a valid translation. I don't speak Chinese so I was hoping some of you that do could let me know how correct a translation of Tui Shou it is.

Tui Shou literally means Push Hands. Stuart Olson argues that there is something lost in translation if you just use it like this. He argues that Tui contains the radical Zhui that means bird and with the story of Yang Jianhou in mind, who could allegedly keep a bird from flying away through the sensitivity of his hands, Olson thinks that the crucial aspect of Tui Shou was the sensitivity and not the pushing.

CD

[nianfong]

actually wuyizidi once posted a very nice statement about the definition of "tui shou", and how it actually is a much larger definition than just pushing hands... maybe he can post it again?

tingjin is just a part of pushing hands. you have to also learn how, where, and when to push. listening is just part of it.

[Ben]

I'm sure I'll continue calling it push hands just because its the accepted translation. Just trying to see what lies beneath.
Any chance for that article wuyizidi?

[shawnsegler]

Something may be accurate from an academic standpoint but make no sense in practical application. Better to just acknowledge that the terminology is used loosely, as it is a designation for common experiences and not meant to be some deeply held and fastidiously studied scripture.

People have trouble reconciling that different ways of looking at things are simply lenses that you examine what you are studying through, and you can have and utilize a need for rigid, exact scrutiny and not throw away your need to be loose and flexible even while examining the same thing. They are simply different lenses and should be used whenever the appropriate one is a appropriate.

That's your whole smart, taoist thing right there: Being apropriate and changing when aprorpriate. Nothing is fixed.

S

[ashe]

i'd like to offer up something, but i'm waiting with baited breath for wuyi's reply...

(not being sarcastic here)

[shawnsegler]

but i'm waiting with baited breath

Be worried if ashe calls you bro.

S- just sayin

[Wuyizidi]

Thank you. It was a response to ZhaoBao3in1's post:

Push hand is a wrong translation ! （Or at least not precise enough）

People always think push hand means push and pull , actually , Push hand is a wrong translation ! Push hand's Chinese is "Tui Shou" , "Shou" means "hand" but also can explain as "Zhao" or "application " , "Tui" actually here means "Tui Qiao" , in English is "Inquire" , not "Push " . Zhaobao Taiji has another name "Dai Li Jia " , that means "The form is to decribe the theory " , "Tui Shou" is two people to "Inquire/Investage the application of Taiji theory " .


If you can know some Chinese , you can go to my Chinese blog ,
http://blog.sina.com.cn/tuishoudao

We can dicuss more about it .

That is a nice way of translating the meaning of the term. I like it.

The word tui by itself means push, shove. But as with all Chinese words, a lot of time it's an abbreviation which stands for a commonly used compound word for which it is a part of. In this case the compound word is 'tui qiao'. Qiao means knock. This is from a very famous story:

Tang Dynasty poet Jia Dao was riding at night, on his way to civil examination when 2 lines of poem suddenly popped into his head "bird nestles in the tree besides the pound, monk pushes on the [temple] door underneath the moon". But then he thought, "okay, it's nighttime, so the door is probably locked, would it be more logical to say he knocked on the door?" He rode on all night engrossed in the problem, carefully deliberating, weighing the merits of each word. He paid little attention when the day broke, and he almost ran into the sedan of the chief examiner, literary giant Han Yu. When he explained the situation to Han Yu, Han did not get upset, but praised his careful, detailed, rigorous intellectual attitude. And Han thought qiao (knock) made more sense.

Since then tui qiao became one word that means studying some problem all the way to its finest level of detail, pushing knowledge to the highest level.

Similarly, shou by itself means hand. But here it's an abbreviation for shou fa. Here fa means method. Shou Fa literally mean hand skills, which in itself is an abbreviation meaning all martial art skills. Similarly, many times you see the word quan (fist) used in a sentence, it doesn't mean fist/punch only, but refers to all martial art skills.

Tui shou then is tui qiao for martial art. "Okay, I just threw you. But that win was too ugly. I'm not satisfied with that. How to I make it more clean, more decisive? For this situation, what is the best way, what is the least amount of effort required, which one is the best angle to throw you - 20 degrees or 15 degrees to your right, what is the best timing - when your force almost gets me, or half way, what type of jin is best suited for what I'm trying to do, where on your body should I apply this force - a solid, insensitive part like this big muscle here, or on this very soft, sensitive spot just to the left of it ..."


Wang Zong Yue does mention the word three times in his Song of 13 Postures (十三势歌). Each of those times he's using the word Tui (推) in the broader sense of inquiry/investigation, which, in the case of Taiji Quan practice, is not confined to Tui Shou practice only. Here's an excerpt of a translation of those sentences from the Taiji Ji Quan Jin translation that I'm working on with my teacher:

仔细留心向推求，屈伸开合听自由。

Translation:
Observe carefully, think deeply, deliberate repeatedly, and investigate every detail; bending and unfolding, opening and closing, everything should be done naturally.

Explanation:
This is about the importance of thinking in practice. To learn Taiji Quan, you must approach it sincerely and pay careful attention at all times. This is because the main ideas behind Taiji Quan, being highly ideal, highly efficient, is also highly dangerous, requiring abilities that runs counter to the instincts and abilities we are born with. It is not 'natural' to run toward a big force coming toward you, it is not 'natural' to want to use a smaller force to deal with a larger force, it is not natural to be open, expansive, relaxed when under stress... If you become negligent and sloppy in your practice, you will by default revert back to your original, 'natural' ways. Natural means you can do without thinking. So replacing old habits with new one means paying attention at all times to make sure you always think and do something explicitly in the new way, until enough repetition makes that behavior/reaction automatic.

Also, if you do not think deeply, you cannot understand the principles and the methods clearly. It will then be very difficult to make progress. Without rigorous analysis and repeated deliberation, you will not be able understand Taiji Quan.

The second part of the sentence tells us that every movement of Taiji Quan should be done in a natural way. Here the interesting question is which nature does this “natural way” refer to - human nature, or the newly acquired second nature? There is a very famous line that offers the answer - “follow nature to seek nature”. Here the first “nature” in the sentence refers to our original human nature, and the second nature refers to the new nature acquired from training. The idea is to develop an enhanced second nature by following our original human nature.

It means although overall our practices should be challenging on a physical level, at the same time, when we're doing skill practice, we should not perform movements which are too challenging for our present level of conditioning. Do what we can do naturally in the correct form, otherwise movement will be too tight. For example, if we go so low that it requires all the willpower just to push through the pain and continue, then we're basically doing resistance training. We cannot practice many of the high level skills in internal martial art that requires relaxation this way. Do the movements using correct body mechanic, and the gong fu (high well you can execute that skill, how low you can go) will come naturally in time through repetition.


详推用意终何在，益寿延年不老春。

Translation:
Reflect deeply, what is the ultimate purpose of training? It is to promote longevity and preserve youthful vitality.

Explanation:
This is a traditional Daoist idea. Taiji Quan is not just for martial artists anymore. Now you can find most Daoist practicing it. From a purely practical perspective, today the primary benefit it offers to most people are cultivation of good health and sound mind.

So Taiji Quan is also a way to study Dao. Using martial art application as real life example, we can get better understanding of the underlying philosophy of yin yang. And with that a deeper general understanding of life and the world we live in, an understanding that will allow us to live a better life.

Here the common question is, if we practice Taiji Quan just for the health, do we need to study application? The answer is still a definitive yes. There are many different practice methods for the health in the world, Taiji Quan is but one of them. But Tai Ji is a martial art, its training methods are those of martial art. For example, if you do not practice push hands, it will be difficult for you to understand the true meaning of relaxing. Without high-level relaxing ability, it will be difficult for you really understand Taiji, and therefore get the full benefits of practicing this art, including ones related to health. So even if you do not like martial art applications, we still suggest you do some push hands practice, maybe just some basic skills. That will really help you understand many things.


若不向此推求去，枉费功夫贻叹惜。

Translation:
If you do not study this way, you’re liable to waste much time and energy and end up sighing in regret.

Explanation:
To succeed in anything you must first have a correct understanding of the principles involved, as well as the right approach for achieving the goal, otherwise all the hard work is for naught. It is very common for many people to practice Taiji Quan for a long time but still do not understand it. So please think about what you do.

When your vision of the goal is correct, and the method for obtaining that goal is correct, the more effort you put in, the closer you are to achieving goal. If the vision of the goal is incorrect (eg. Taiji quan skill at its highest levels is all about using the biggest fa jin possible to overcome all resistance), your method incorrect (eg. exclusive focus on power training, neglecting sensitivity, following skills), the more effort your put in, the further you are from reaching the real goal. Your time is precious, when it is passed, it can never be brought back. Do not waste it and give yourself causes for regret.

Wuyizidi

[Ben]

Wow, Thanks Wuyizidi!

Thats just what I was looking for.

[Mut]

nice post.... excellent actually thx

[Aged Tiger]

Well, my 2 cents is I consider "Sensing Hands" and "Push Hands" to be different things for training purposes. With Sensing hands needing to understood at least halfway before venturing to Push Hands so that bad habits don't develop due to a lack of knowledge.

Push Hands being an expansion or "freedom of expression" if you will, of Sensing Hands.

Hope that made sense....

C

[Ben]

I get what your saying.