Masters who don't tell you the name of the style(s) you do

[kal]

How do you feel about masters who teach stuff, but don't tell the students what the name of the style is?

What prompted this question was watching a Q&A session with Joh Allen of Green Dragon. He said that his first kung fu teacher was called Master Ong and he would never tell the students the names of what they were doing. His position was: "Is knowing the name going to help you do it out on the floor? No? So so what the hell do you want to know for?"

Is this a common attitude for Chinese teachers? Or do they consider the name and history of their style to be worth knowing and talking about?

I agree with Ong partly ... but only up to a point. Yes, knowing the style name isn't going to help you in training or in a real fight, but on the other hand, how do you know what you are supposed to be learning? And how do you know that you're actually learning a complete style rather than bits and pieces of various things?
For example, if I am being taught what someone says is Hung Gar, I don't want to later find that it was actually just a couple of Hung Gar forms, augmented with Long Fist basics and with a dash of wing chun butterfyly knives and a tai chi broadword thrown in.

[Plante]

It all depends on what you are looking for? Good teacher? Good martial abilities? Health? Hobby? Pure lineage?

I'm learning from a good teacher that can apply what she teaches, it is all that matter to me.

[Josealb]

I think that depends on the timing of the question. If a guy is just learning Piquan for the first time and after the first 5 or 6 he goes "but who tought this under what lineage?"...well, you get the idea. Otherwise i dont see any reason to withhold information.

[DeusTrismegistus]

My teacher doesn't tell us much. Its really only an issue in communication. I didn't know the names for the tai chi movements until I started reading and posting on MA forums and their are still things I don't know the name of. My teacher has never once said tingjin or pengjin or jin or jing or shen and only occasionally qi. Yet I had no problem understanding what tingjin or pengjin was referring to when I saw an example because my teacher has always taught those things.

[Darthwing Teorist]

It all depends on what you are looking for? Good teacher? Good martial abilities? Health? Hobby? Pure lineage?

I'm learning from a good teacher that can apply what she teaches, it is all that matter to me.

Phil pierce-palmed the correct in the throat.

[Robert Young]

Is this a common attitude for Chinese teachers? Or do they consider the name and history of their style to be worth knowing and talking about?

Traditionally, that is not what a Chinese teacher should have. And, traditionally Chinese would like to talk about their lineage. If someone would not like to talk about about it, it ususally means he did not have a lineage or he has trouble with his own people in the lineage so that he did not dare to say it and come up with all kinds of reasons to cover it.

Chinese treat their teachers like their own fathers sometime even more so. A CMA teacher would love to talk if not brag about their lineage. This is a normal situation. But, not every one can have a chance to learn a whole system from a certain style or system. People travelled, relocated or whatever the situation. Many people may learn several styles or systems. But, they should be able to ping point what they are teaching.

Now, in this country, it is very difficult to learn from someone who carry their lineage. Even someone who have learned from a good lineage may not be good theirselves. Most people I ran into learn a few things here and there in terms of CMA goes. I even know a few people who went to many seminars and become teachers themselves. I know locally, most people who teach here don't even know the important of lineage, not to mention the differences of styles or systems.

There are other extreme though. In Taiwan, some people would come up with some styles most people don't know and teacher to make a living even though they don't know anything about CMA. THey would some up with a great story about their lineages and styles that were not even exist. It is students' job to figure out who is right teacher and if the teacher is worth learning from. So, ask around and be cautious is something you need to keep in mind.

[edededed]

Some teachers have specific reasons not to talk about their own teachers, but otherwise, there isn't much need to hide one's lineage.

Like Robert said, many teachers do like to talk about their teachers/lineage - after all, it is a good thing. Lineage is one way to "make sure" that what you are learning is the real thing.

[C.J.Wang]

Yeah..........that's why when a teacher refuses to tell you the name of the style he teaches, chances are he's either a super skilled practitioner who hides his background for a reason, or that he's completely bogus.

[Ben]

I grew up in a small town in north GA. There was a guy there who I met who sauid he did and taught Tai Chi. At the time I knew nothing about Tai Chi and I attended a few of his classes. The I moved to Atlanta and found another school. I found out that he was only doing Chi kung. Not even Tai Chi Chi Kung, Just something else all together and calling it Tai chi. You really have to be careful about stuff like that. If someone doesn't tell you what you're doing then you can't really verify if its any good.

[kal]

I pretty much agree with what folks are saying. My instinct, in general, is that if someone won't tell you the name of the style then they are probably a fraud.

But there is one "counter-example" that I want to explore. What about so-called Village Kung Fu styles? Just a few days ago I was watching a documentary about China and saw some footage of people living in small rural villages. Now these people were probably illiterate and spent their time farming or fishing. If there was some kind of martial arts practiced in these villages, would these people even know (or care) what it was called and whether it was "genuine" or not?

Sure, we in the west are all familiar with the big, famous styles like Hung Gar and Wing Chun and Long Fist. But are these actually the norm? If you were a simple guy, maybe a peasant, living in some rural village in China, would even the idea of a style have much meaning? Or would it be simply, like Mr Miyagi says ... "Father teach"?

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

I have been in a position where I would pester the teacher with every question under the sun, "why is the sky blue", etc.

I would also ask him about certain things I would see him practising and he would just pass it off as exercises for old people, health rejuvination and so on. Later on he would teach me these same movements, telling me they were secret internal methods not to be passed onto outsiders. This would happen quite a lot actually, I would ask him something, he would deny it's existance, but later on would show it to me, lol.

I guess I thought he was very open, but in fact, he was still old school and I respect him for that, though at times I fall into the "eager beaver" category.

JB.

[Ben]

I pretty much agree with what folks are saying. My instinct, in general, is that if someone won't tell you the name of the style then they are probably a fraud.

But there is one "counter-example" that I want to explore. What about so-called Village Kung Fu styles? Just a few days ago I was watching a documentary about China and saw some footage of people living in small rural villages. Now these people were probably illiterate and spent their time farming or fishing. If there was some kind of martial arts practiced in these villages, would these people even know (or care) what it was called and whether it was "genuine" or not?

Sure, we in the west are all familiar with the big, famous styles like Hung Gar and Wing Chun and Long Fist. But are these actually the norm? If you were a simple guy, maybe a peasant, living in some rural village in China, would even the idea of a style have much meaning? Or would it be simply, like Mr Miyagi says ... "Father teach"?

In that case wouldn't they just say something like,"It doesn't have a name" or "Its just what people in my village so" instead of saying they aren't going to tell you what the name is because it isn't important.

[Mulong]

In the past shifu took up the old Confucius motto that it was disrespectful to ask your shifu questions; if you did it implied that you didn’t believe in him, etc.

Also, we must take into account in the past, you went to a shifu, because of his fighting skill; hence, you didn’t care about names per se you just wanted to obtain his skill.

Sadly, some shifus don’t mention what they teach is because they have something to hide.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

There is also the element of not wanting to have to re-explain because your enthusiastic student went out and vomitted out everything incorrectly to someone else and is now spreading misinformation about the art because of their misplaced egoism. This has happened before, at least in my experience. For students in the early phases of learning, it's probably best to contain one's enthusiasm for talking about something that they are as yet still quite unfamiliar with despite their best intentions.

[chrislomas]

I suspect Kal is right and that there were/are many family forms which are outside of the major lineages. The older generation often didn't bother too much with names or specifics.

I have known two old Chinese chappies (one now sadly dead, but was in his late 80s the other is still a spritely 94!) who would only refer to what they did/do as Kung Fu. If you pester(ed) them they say shaolin, one learnt from his uncle another his friends father etc, that was as much as you'd get. They were both very accomplished in martial arts with a high level of knowledge both in form and application. I was never their student (just a friend) but in these Bullshido/prove it/your-sh*t is-fake (etc etc) days woe betided anyone who learnt from them and tries to pass it on.