Tang Lang Quan vs. Xing Yi Quan

[kreese]

No, not a fantasy deathmatch, but a question regarding the similarities and differences between the two arts. What I really want to know is how it feels to fight someone expressing these two styles.

oHow is the quality of force application different between TLQ and XYQ?

o How is the fighting strategy different?

o What attributes are developed by training these two styles?

o What types of qigong training are involved in both styles, and what are the goals of the respective qigong?

Thanks.

[JAB]

Depends on which sub-style of Mantis you are referring to. Liuhe Tanglang and XY are VERY similar in their approach, and even in application. Qigong is not a factor in either as I have been taught, as Qigong has nothing to do with combat. Both styles have standing if that is what you are asking, but none of my teachers overly emphasize it.
Fighting strategy is similar as both are looking to exploit their opponents structure via the smallest possible angle.
Hope that helps a bit.
Jake

[C.J.Wang]

I don't know much about Liuhe system to comment, but for conventional Mantis systems such as Seven Star and Plum Flower, the flavor, power, and strategy are quite different from those of Xinyi.

SS and PF Mantis emphasize hand speed, hopping monkey footwork, and intricately arranged shoufa designed to flow from strking to joint locks and takedowns. A Mantis player would often confuse the opponent with a flurry of rapid hits, causing a flinch response before moving in for the kill. Much of the energy is expressed by segmented whipping of the limbs, especially the forearms -- which is why in the old-days you could easily tell if someone's a SS/PF Mantis pracitioner just by looking at his strong forearms.

Xiniyi (Bagua too) is relatively more "whole-body" oriented than SS/PF Mantis. The typical Xinyi fighting style would require the practitioner to adjust angle slightly before moving into the opponent's space while simultaneously controlling/sticking/crushing his frame with whole-body force. Generally the hands don't move much because the body is what does most of the work. It is for this reason that Santi posture training is so valued because having whole-body energy is an important part of Xinyi fighting.

[JAB]

Those are really blanket statements, and frankly depends on the teacher. But overall what you described is very SIMILAR (not the same) to the XY I have learned, and vice versa.
Jake

[edededed]

I don't know about liuhe tanglang, but many tanglang systems have a qigong set (or three).

A common one is 18 Luohan Gong (十八羅漢功), which seems to be a seven star set. Su Yuzhang has talked about several more qigong sets that he has learned in his mantis training, such as Five Methods Comfortable Breath (Qi) Method (五勢舒氣法) (might be a plum blossom set?).

Regarding liuhe tanglang, I have never heard of any particular qigong sets associated with it, but... who knows

Xingyiquan has various qigong methods as well, some for health, others for martial purposes. On the other hand, noone talks about them, so it is possible that everyone's methods are different

[Bob]

Eight Step Praying Mantis [Ba Bu Tang Lang Quan] has within it elements, postures, and techniques from both bagua and xing yi. Stance work has always been a major part of the training I received along with relaxed breathing; the philosophy behind the stance work is the belief that without any legs you cannot have good upper body movement and power, without relaxed waist and kua, you cannot tranfer power from the legs effectively to the outer extremeties. When I started in 1988, neigong, qi gong wasn't mentioned---as a result, many students felt that it was unimportant yet in latter years, as more and more information becomes available, it is indeed neigong/qi gong. I think my teacher's attitude has always been so what is the big deal with the label--its breathing and stance work. "Everybody has to breath whether you stand or move. Everybody know this!"

His point being, at the elementary level, everything is both internal and external---why get jacked up over labels---just do the basic stuff and don't worry about whether its neigong/qi gong, especially if it comes at the expense of practice.

[Bob]

Jake might know a bit more here, but my understanding is that the founder of Liu He Tang Lang Quan also had fairly intense taijiquan practice, maybe Wu style?

I have often heard that Wei Xiao Tang, Ba Bu praying mantis, often practiced a very traditional old Wu style.

I don't pretend to know the logic or reason but if true, there must be something in that for the hard core old timers to practice it as part of their art.

[JAB]

Hmmm, not sure about Taiji, but as mentioned earlier perhaps some Xin(g) Yi. Most great teachers have cross trained in other arts some time in their life!
Cheers
Jake