Hsingyi Santi - weight distributions

[Josealb]

Uhm...100% weight on one leg is more mobile than 50/50? are you high? Its thursday for gods sake. At least wait for the weekend.

Think about this. 100% on one leg means that you have to move ALL your weight into whatever direction, and you can only start by moving ONE leg. 50/50 means you're in the middle and you can go anywhere with little effort, stepping with whatever foot you want. You dont hop, you step.

[nianfong]

even in the chicken stance, you can't move the direction of your rooted leg (ie, left, if your left foot is rooted). hence, 50-50 is most mobile, able to move in any direction. at 50-50, you can also lighten your feet up quickest--look at TKD people and their switch step--because you can use both legs to lift yourself up, and then propel yourself in one direction using one foot.

look at a boxer, or a TKD guy. arguably TKD guys have some of the fastest footwork out there (I'm not talking lame american TKD). they hop up and down on evenly weighted feet.

[TaoJoannes]

Uhm...100% weight on one leg is more mobile than 50/50? are you high? Its thursday for gods sake. At least wait for the weekend.

Think about this. 100% on one leg means that you have to move ALL your weight into whatever direction, and you can only start by moving ONE leg. 50/50 means you're in the middle and you can go anywhere with little effort, stepping with whatever foot you want. You dont hop, you step.

And as soon as you begin to step, you are 100/0. 50/50 must become 100/0 before movement is possible. Therefore, 100/0 is more mobile, faster, than 50/50.

Stepping from either foot has a finite number of possible angles of travel that are effective. Ideally both feet would have identical, but directionally opposed, possible directions of motion, but conditioning and physical limitations cause them to vary, so one will have more good options than the other, in most cases. So, if you take the possible places you can move when weighted on one leg, and overlay them with the places you can move when weighted on the other leg, the result is that you have more places to move effectively, but not many more. There is far more overlap than uniqueness.

So you have slightly more options to move with weight evenly distributed between two feet, yes, I agree, but at what cost?

First, the weight has to be shifted fully to one leg before you can step, so you're adding time to the action of moving.
Second, you're adding options, more possibilities to be considered in the OODA loop before action can occur. Which is, again, time you're wasting.

As far as taekwondo goes, it's a different thing altogether. Xingyi as I understand it is a close-in approach to fighting, while Taekwondo works at range. And neither TKD nor boxing allows targeting the lower leg, so we're also dealing with that difference in concerns and strategy. I really haven't watched enough TKD to know much about the hopping, but they spend an awful lot of time in 100/0 weighted stances, as I recall. They just call them kicks.

I don't know what is meant by you have to move all of your weight, that isn't necessarily the case. From the 100/0, you can step in any direction and shift weight in whatever fashion you like. Shifting the weight completely to the other leg is just as fast as being weighted 50/50 and shifting it halfway.

[Josealb]

soo 100% on one leg is the fastest way and a kick is a stance. Ok. Thats proof enough. I only got one question.

Where was your 100% when Bruce had you in a headlock?

[TaoJoannes]

Lol, Bruce whoops my ass at most games.

A kick is just as much of a stance as a step is. When we're discussing this in the context of fighting, you have to consider that you aren't going to be standing there in a stationary horse or santi, waiting for your opponent to get within range of your mighty fists. You're going to be constantly moving, stepping and shifting from one foot to the other. If you just want to stand there and trade blows, yeah, go for it, but that doesn't seem to be the nature of the method that the IMAs develop.

This basic question isn't all that difficult to prove, though.

Stand evenly weighted 50/50. Pick up your foot. You are now 100/0. Step.

Stand 100/0. Step.

Which is faster?

Stand evenly weighted 50/50. Take one step in as many directions as possible. Keep track.
Stand 100/0, do the same.

Which gives you more options, and how many more?

Once you know the exact answers to those questions, you can make an intelligent choice about the trade-offs and which method you want to deeply ingrain into your body. Otherwise, you're just working on faith.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Tao, I know where you are coming from and I think I can explain where we are coming from.

If you are in a stance with 100% of your weight on your right leg, and your left leg is in a straight line ahead of you; when you move you will have to move your foot unless you are shifting straight ahead. Now let say you want to step to 10 o'clock. You must first move your left leg that forward from 12 o'clock (straight ahead), to 10 o clock (to the left side). After your foot is in position then you can shift your weight forward. From the starting position the unweighted foot can move to most points very quickly. However the center, your body, cannot move immediately except in that one direction (straight ahead in this case).

If you are in a 50/50 stance. Feet positioned same as above, you must shift your center, your body, back before stepping to the left and then shifting forward. This does take longer to move the foot but not necessarily to reach the final destination, however the center, your body, can move immediately along the plane made by your two feet.

Hypothetical scenario. You are in a 100% back weighted stance with your other foot forward. Your opponent catches you with a front kick to the stomach. You see it coming but do not have the time/balance to move to the side or at an angle, you can only move back to get out of the way. For you to move back to escape the kick you must first move your front foot to back behind you if you are taking a full step. You will not have enough time to get away. If you are caught in the same situation but ina 50/50 stance you can immediately move your body back to start to get out of the way, depending on your height and stance you should be able to move 6 inches or more which will get you out of the power range of a well executed kick.

50/50 allows the center/your body to move immediately and it gives you more direction to move in within the same amount of time. 100/0 allows you to move the unweighted foot more quickly, but it takes longer to move the weighted foot, and you have fewer options within the same time frame. Hence why 50/50 is considered the most mobile stance. Higher stances allow for quicker movement because there is less distance to move the center between steps. Higher stances aren't as powerful though.

[nianfong]

the main problem here is when you're moving you're no longer in a stance. you're moving. a fighting stance is a posture you take as a sorta "zero" position. when you're moving, you're no longer in any stance.

test: stand in a chicken stance with your left foot rooted. have your friend give you a straight kick at your chest. dodge backwards.
now stand in 50-50, high stance. have your friend give you a straight kick at your chest. dodge backwards.

which one do you get kicked?

now repeat moving to your right instead of backwards.

now repeat moving FORWARD instead of backwards, stuffing the kick.

I think you'll find that the chicken stance is best for moving forward, but even then, you might not make it there before someone in 50-50. and the 50-50 stance is best for all other directions.

when you're in close, you will settle into a lower stance, but still, to maintain mobility, 50-50 is best. Unless you're laying down bait of course. even in shuaijiao this is necessarily the case.

-Fong

[TaoJoannes]

Ah, but does 100/0 necessarily mean a chicken stance? (Which I understand to mean the 0 foot to be a few inches off the ground, about ankle height near the other foot.)

100/0 can be any number of foot position configurations.

I get into my santi by starting with my heels about two inches apart and the toes pointing out at 45 degrees off the centerline. One foot then toes out to 90 and I shift all my wieght onto it. The other foot goes straight out as far as I can push it forward without weighting it, while touching the ground, I get more length by going lower on the weighted leg. When I find that point, I shift the desired amount of weight onto it, usually 80/20 rear-weighted.

That's the same way I'm training stepping. The foot is empty even when extended, unless I'm moving in that direction.

However, doing the elements and animals is a little different, because we make extensive use of falling steps and follow steps in conjunction to shift the weight rapidly forward when striking and immediately shift it back to rear.

As far as stepping in the direction of the weighted leg with the weighted leg from an empty stance, it's not hard, it's contained within the San Cai Jian Fencing set from my taiji system, but not in the empty hand forms I'm familiar with.

[qiphlow]

fwiw, double weighted as i understand it doesn't have much to do with your stance. it's you and the other guy leaning on each other.

[Areios]

if you stand 100/0 is bad, but in the motion in steping yes there are 100/0 part of it, but i don't start from 100/0. It's not mobile and have many other problems.
in practise it can be a good leg stregthening.
And for the original question I learned 60/40.

[Harvey]

Just out of interest how do you guys relate the weight distribution to the tearing energy between the heels/bubbling wells?

[MikeC]

Just out of interest how do you guys relate the weight distribution to the tearing energy between the heels/bubbling wells?

We don't. See a doctor about that BTW...

[Harvey]

yarf yarf, but seriously the forward pushing off the back leg and the bracing backward off the front. That can't be acheived in a 100/0 stance

[GrahamB]

I'd guess that not everybody is familiar with that method Harvey. I'm not. There's enough to think about already without making it even more difficult

[Harvey]

It's not difficult just another way of making it hurt more LOL