Hsingyi Santi - weight distributions

[meeks]

what do the principles of xing yi teach regarding weight distribution? In bagua, one of the principles of posture is 'weight in the back leg'.

[TaoJoannes]

fwiw, double weighted as i understand it doesn't have much to do with your stance. it's you and the other guy leaning on each other.

There's a couple different double weightings, and I'm not making them up, this is in the Yang family Taijiquan writings for anyone to find. (T'ai Chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions, T'ai-Chi Ch'uan: A simplified Form of Calisthenics for Health and Self Defense, T'ai-Chi Chu'an for Health and Self-Defense: Philosophy and Practice)

I've seen what you described listed as double weighting, but only one part of it. What is meant by double weighting in another aspect is as I've described, the even distribution of the weight between the feet that impacts mobility. Another aspect is the weight of the body being present in the leg on the same side of the body as the lead edit hand, which impacts stability and rooting.

Of course, the meat of this discussion is about Xingyi, but the terms overlap enough to be confusing.

One of the hardest things I've done so far is reconcile my Taiji empty stepping with my Xingyi falling-follow stepping, and I realize that many folks here use different stepping methods than those in their Xingyi. Perhaps the advantages I see and the limitations that others are concerned with are merely due to variations in the style's respective shen fa.

[wiesiek]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, fwiw.


I don't buy that a 50/50 stance is the most mobile. It's difficult to prove conclusively, and it will vary by individual and situation, but I don't see how movement from 50/50 is really possible. Until one leg takes all of the weight, the stance is stationary. It isn't until the foot is picked up that it can move to another place.

this is
THIS special nano seec. time BEEtweEEn two of the given movment in any given time

just a small part of the unending wave of the motion

[affa]

And as soon as you begin to step, you are 100/0.

false. your weight is still distributed around your center of gravity such that some weight is still supported by your stable leg, but the rest is counter-balanced on the opposite side of your center, hurtling through space.

50/50 must become 100/0 before movement is possible.

for the same reason above, false. 100/0 is stationary, unless you're twisting around that pole [no dick or stripper jokes please ] with no weight shift in the steps

Therefore, 100/0 is more mobile, faster, than 50/50.... First, the weight has to be shifted fully to one leg before you can step, so you're adding time to the action of moving.

false. take for example a 50/50, front to back stance. you don't have to shift out of this 100% to one leg to go forward or backward. just by lifting up one of the 50% legs, you automatically transfer that part of the balanced weight into the free fall of gravity (hence falling step). again, see the first point, re: the counter-balanced weight. if you had been standing at 100%, you'd first have to initiate the fall into gravity by leaning your center forward or back and then pushing off with your power leg. of course the better you are at your art, the closer these two actions would come to simultaneity, however it would still be slower since your center of mass has farther to travel before the completion of the strike. at 50/50, you're already half way there.

[Dillon]

I'm not decided on what weighting I prefer overall, but one thing I do know is that you don't have to shift the weight to a 100/0 relationship before you can move. If you were in a 50/50 stance on a grid, with (for example) the left leg in the upper left quadrant and the right leg in the lower right quadrant, you would move left by picking up the left leg and pushing with the right. I guess you could consider the push to be 100% weight on the right leg, but you're not balancing; part of your weight is falling. You pick up whichever leg is in the direction your going, and push as you fall, instead of taking the time to transfer the weight to the other leg before you move.

[kreese]

Meeks - my understanding is that bagua needs a little bit more back weighting if you want to twist 90 degrees. I feel like it pays to empty the lead hip in order to get that extra twist. What do you think, sir?

Why are we talking about taiji in this thread, btw?

[TaoJoannes]

And as soon as you begin to step, you are 100/0.

false. your weight is still distributed around your center of gravity such that some weight is still supported by your stable leg, but the rest is counter-balanced on the opposite side of your center, hurtling through space.

Perhaps you're preferring a different method of movement, but I'm not training to commit my weight in an uncontrolled fashion. The structure must always support the weight and root it into the ground in a balanced fashion. The counter balancing of the leg doesn't magically make the weight not transfer through the structure. Now, the apparent weight may change based on the specific vector involved in a movement, but the weight is always rooted through the point of contact.

50/50 must become 100/0 before movement is possible.

for the same reason above, false. 100/0 is stationary, unless you're twisting around that pole [no dick or stripper jokes please ] with no weight shift in the steps

Every step that I take is 100/0. I don't see how you can logic away the mechanics of walking. You pick one foot up, which then causes you to either shift your weight to the other leg, or fall forward. Even when falling forward, the front leg will take 100 percent of the weight for some period of time. If shifting forward, you can linger anywhere along the spectrum, but you will eventually need to go from 100/0 to 90/10 to 10/90 to 0/100 before you can take another step.

Therefore, 100/0 is more mobile, faster, than 50/50.... First, the weight has to be shifted fully to one leg before you can step, so you're adding time to the action of moving.

false. take for example a 50/50, front to back stance. you don't have to shift out of this 100% to one leg to go forward or backward. just by lifting up one of the 50% legs, you automatically transfer that part of the balanced weight into the free fall of gravity (hence falling step). again, see the first point, re: the counter-balanced weight. if you had been standing at 100%, you'd first have to initiate the fall into gravity by leaning your center forward or back and then pushing off with your power leg. of course the better you are at your art, the closer these two actions would come to simultaneity, however it would still be slower since your center of mass has farther to travel before the completion of the strike. at 50/50, you're already half way there.

Yes, I agree with what you're saying, however, if you immediately go into a falling step when you are picking up your leg, that would seem to me like an unstable structure. You would be committing to a very large and slow action every time you moved your feet. In all cases, I pick my foot up, then initiate the falling step, then perform a follow step/replacement step, which empties the front leg. As far as how it happens, it's a bit more sophisticated than leaning and pushing, or at least it feels like it.

Now, I think this sort of footwork applies more to fighting at range, as when you start grappling, the shifting between feet caused by your opponent makes it somewhat difficult, but even in the clinch, the 100/0 stance comes into play when issuing power.

As far as the taiji goes, as I mentioned above, it's merely to clarify the term double-weighting.

[nianfong]

you don't seem to understand that it's not "double-weighted". a much better translation is "double heavy"
and in 50-50 you are not necessarily double heavy.

[MikeC]

So if you can levitate would that be a 0/0 distribution?

I wanna know...

[TaoJoannes]

you don't seem to understand that it's not "double-weighted". a much better translation is "double heavy"
and in 50-50 you are not necessarily double heavy.

I don't speak-a the chinese, so I have to go by the translations of more advanced scholars. I paraphrase, "having the weight evenly distributed between the feet duplicates the center of gravity and is known as double-weighting, it is an error". Again, these are taiji writings, so have to be thought of from that perspective. It is expounded upon several times in that aspect, as well as others, a few of which I've mentioned. When I mention double-weighting, it is as I've described above, as I've never encountered it specifically within the scope of Hsing-I. Probably because I haven't spent nearly as much time studying the Hsing-I classics.

Perhaps double-heavy is a better translation for the concept as you're understanding it, but double-weighting is the best possible description of what I'm discussing. Duplicating the center of gravity or "ground path" in other senses.

This discussion is only really interesting to me in that it helps show how a different body method fuels strategy in a different way, I doubt anyone is going to change their stepping or standing methods based on it. But food for thought is always appreciated.

[Josealb]

[Fubo]

Personally I go with 60/90 - makes a lot more sense to me.

[xingyijuan]

Jeebus! Why get lost in all kind of definitions and what-nots.

An evenly weighted stance allows a better shuffle for footwork. I know someone said this already, but it is easier going from 50 to 100, or 50 to 0, than from 0 to 100, or vice-versa. Also, if you're standing with all your weight on the left leg, there's only one way to go... putting you weight on the right leg. With 50-50, you can go both sides (almost said "go both ways"), therefore more mobility. It's not rocket science.

[bailewen]

There is just so much more to movement than just shuffling around.

So 50-50 is best for ...retreating? Sidestepping?

How about:

- kicking
- sprinting forward (run him down)
- throwing
- defending a throw / takedown
- defeding against a low kick

and ps. Tao,

Every step that I take is 100/0. I don't see how you can logic away the mechanics of walking. You pick one foot up, which then causes you to either shift your weight to the other leg, orb fall forward.

Emphaiss mine.

You are wrong.

Walking is falling. Most of the time your center of gravity is not supported by either foot. There is lots of scientific study on this. Other than something like snake stepping, all walking is falling. We just catch ourselves before we fall all the way down. That's how the human gait works.

OTOH, you are right. . . about mobility and weight distribution.

We are all falling all the time. It takes 3 legs to make a table. If you are not holding on to something or someone with one of your hands or maybe leaning against something, you are falling. You are balancing on 2 legs.

Stability is an illision.

Standing on a stable base is an illusion

[Aged Tiger]

Jeebus! Why get lost in all kind of definitions and what-nots.

An evenly weighted stance allows a better shuffle for footwork. I know someone said this already, but it is easier going from 50 to 100, or 50 to 0, than from 0 to 100, or vice-versa. Also, if you're standing with all your weight on the left leg, there's only one way to go... putting you weight on the right leg. With 50-50, you can go both sides (almost said "go both ways"), therefore more mobility. It's not rocket science.

Finally! Someone said it simply like it should be. Watching the back and forth bickering I wonder if anyone gets any actual training done....

Experiment! Experiment! Experiment! and Practice! (too much thinking going on...)

C