Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby C.J.Wang on Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:53 am

Ben wrote:Sink the chest and pluck up the back. The chest is depressed naturally inward so that the ch'i can sink to the tan-t'ien [field of elixir]. Don't expand the chest: the ch'i gets stuck there and the body becomes top-heavy. The heel will be too light and can be uprooted. Pluck up the back and the ch'i sticks to the back; depress the chest and you can pluck up the back. Then you can discharge force through the spine. You will be a peerless boxer.


I've been tinking a lot about this lately. Up to now I haven't been sinking the chest. I tried it a little and it feels identical to what Sam Chin showed me in the ILC seminar. I have a more upright posture that the ILC posture but its a more rounded feeling in the sholders and feels more ... solid... I guess.

How many people who do TCC sink the chest this way?

Also Ashe, I remember Mr.Chin saying that tucking in the ribs(or however he described it) seals the breath, so if you get hit you won't get the wind knocked out of you. Is that correct? I may not remember correctly.

Anyone feel free to add anything I'm not thinking of. :)



Sink the chest and pluck the back, when done properly, creates a frame that unifies the arms to the body. It's emphasized not just in Taiji, but all systems of CMA I have been exposed to.

Tucking of the ribs, or "stacking" of the ribs as my teacher refers to, is emphasized in Southern CMA systems as a part of the iron body training.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby xuesheng on Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:07 am

For me, sinking the chest and plucking up the back is more about my intention than a noticeable postural change.
When I first started practicing Taiji and Xingyi, I would exaggerate my posture based on Yang Chen-Fu's points. Over time the postural adjustments became much more subtle and now it's more "internal" - that is more a function of mind of intent than physical changes. Part of that is because the posture has become more natural. Part of it is recognizing that the postural changes are very subtle.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Brady on Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:11 am

I'm no taiji guy, but I'm curious why people keep saying that the chest hollows when relaxed?
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby C.J.Wang on Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:16 am

Brady wrote:I'm no taiji guy, but I'm curious why people keep saying that the chest hollows when relaxed?


Hollow is a bad translation. The original Chinese word is "han," which roughly means to "contain" something concrete or abstract in a subtle manner.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby qiphlow on Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:29 am

Brady wrote:I'm no taiji guy, but I'm curious why people keep saying that the chest hollows when relaxed?

it kinda feels concave (to me, at least). doesn't really look that way from the outside, though.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby GrahamB on Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:57 pm

Brady wrote:I'm no taiji guy, but I'm curious why people keep saying that the chest hollows when relaxed?


This Chinese language is getting too confusing. We need some proper English chaps to show how it is done, by jove!

This lesson shows clearly by means of two photographs the secret of Stahara Control, and teaches you how to apply it.

Image

Fig 14: CENTER OF GRAVITY TOO HIGH -- INCORRECT

NO STRENGTH IN THE STAHARA -- THE ABDOMINAL REGION

Body weak -- easily unbalanced.

Connection between arms and legs absent.

Body cannot move quickly.

Image

Fig 15: CENTER OF GRAVITY LOW -- CORRECT

THE STAHARA -- ABDOMINAL REGION -- FULL OF STRENGTH

Body strong -- well balanced.

Proper connection between arms and legs.

Body able to move quickly.

STAHARA CONTROL HELPS QUICK MOVEMENT

Dance around the room imitating the movements of a boxer -- this is called "shadow boxing." First raise your ribs as high as you can, as in fig. 14.

Next dance around with Stahara control, as in fig. 15. Note how much more under control your movements are, the connection between your arms and legs is much better; you can put more punch into your arm movements.

Stahara control teaches you to keep limber all over, even your Stahara is not tensed, and it enables you to concentrate all your effort in the proper muscles at the proper time.




AN EASY EXPERIMENT



TRY THIS

Stand at attention, head up, shoulders back. Throw your chest out, raising the ribs thus showing what physical culturists call "The Grecian Arch," as shown in fig. 14.

In this position let a friend seize your coat at the shoulders with finger and thumb of each hand, and slowly pull until you lose your balance and fall forward.

It takes but a small effort on his part as your center of balance is too high and your waistline is weak.

Again stand at attention, but do not raise your Grecian Arch. Tense your abdominal muscles, as shown in fig. 15 but without drawing the stomach in. Press the stomach out and against your belt.

Have your friend pull you forward as before. Stand still, do not move the feet. Note how much better you keep your balance.

He will note how much heavier you feel, and, using the same amount of strength as before he will be unable to pull you forward.

Try these two experiments on your friend. In number 1, use the minimum effort to unbalance him. In number 2, use the same amount of strength, and note how much heavier and stronger he is.

A man who has trained himself to stand and pose with the Grecian Arch showing will be at a disadvantage when he first begins to wrestle or box for when making an effort he will instinctively raise his chest walls.

This raises his center of balance too high and weakens his Stahara -- the connecting link between his arms and legs.

In the first experiment with no control of the Stahara the body is like a ship, made of good material, but in which the rivets are loose.

In the second, the ship is tight and trim, every rivet in its place and holding. Your body is like one solid beam, a trustworthy support for a weighty structure, rather than a pillar made of several timbers loosely bolted together and consequently weak.

Practise this experiment until your face shows no trace of effort and until you can do it easily, tensing only when he pulls and relaxing when he relaxes.

The awkwardness of many men can be traced to their unconsciously raising their Grecian Arch whenever they do anything requiring and effort.
Image


From the rather excellent "The Secrets of Jujitsu, A Complete Course in Self Defense"

By Captain Allan Corstorphin Smith, U.S.A.

Full book here for you colonials to get up to speed on, what? It's written by an AMERICAN!?!?!??!?!

Oh crap.There goes the Empire.

Full book:
http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_cptsmith_0700.htm
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby AllanF on Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:37 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Allan, maybe just splitting hairs here but as was mentioned 'han' is holding in rather than sinking, sinking is more of like what is done with the waist 塌腰 ta yao, and raising up the back doesn't make sense as it's 'ba' or 'pulling out'. Also pulling down the huiyin goes against the song which should be lifting up huiyin and countering the expansion down from the dantian- 把肛提 ba gang ti.


nianfong wrote:the term is 含胸拔背. it's not sink so much as "hold in" 含. not holding in strongly, just holding in, like holding a lozenge in your mouth. Not squishing it, but just holding it. not slouching. you kinda need to be shown.
"pluck up" is to pull straight up. it's like pulling your spine straight up.


The ta you have there means to sink yes but also to droop, so is not the implication of what is required. (At least in my mind) As for pulling the back out, everything i said is done with the mind, there is no consious physical movement in pulling out (it is up not out that we are trying to achive). What nianfong has writen is spot on regarding the back it goes straight up not out.

What you have said here (把肛提 ba gang ti) is correct but with one small difference the huiyin is not gang 肛 gang means anus. Huiyin goes down the anus goes up! Thus a circulataion is created. (remember all this is done with the intention not so much physical cortortion) To being with when practicing the form you should go very slowly because this will help you practice this circulation better, eg for liu feng si bi (two handed push) when you step forward the front goes down and when you push and transfer weight to the front, the back comes up. However it should also be noted that even when the front goes down the baihui should be suspended and should not collapse. After some time as you become acustomed to the feelings of what you are trying to do the sinking and rising become simulatnious and continuous.
Last edited by AllanF on Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby TaoJoannes on Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:42 pm

You round your arms and chest so they are part of the same circle. The chest and back are two sides of the same arc.

This represents the inner function of the structure. Pressure applied at any point of the circle is routed through the shoulders to the other side, like a chicken egg.
Image

This structure then links in to the spine, which is basically two arches in opposition, like a sine wave, and with the tucked hips/erect lower vertebra, another arch is formed through the legs.

It all serves, primarily, to route force from the ground to any particular part of the structure, and vice versa.

You can see it.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:53 pm

AllanF wrote:
What you have said here (把肛提 ba gang ti) is correct but with one small difference the huiyin is not gang 肛 gang means anus. Huiyin goes down the anus goes up! Thus a circulataion is created. (remember all this is done with the intention not so much physical cortortion) To being with when practicing the form you should go very slowly because this will help you practice this circulation better, eg for liu feng si bi (two handed push) when you step forward the front goes down and when you push and transfer weight to the front, the back comes up. However it should also be noted that even when the front goes down the baihui should be suspended and should not collapse. After some time as you become acustomed to the feelings of what you are trying to do the sinking and rising become simulatnious and continuous.


I probably shouldn't have brought that up, don't want to derail the thread and it's btdt, but in the past on here and from the collective knowledge of different IMA teachers we'd surmised that although the classic uses the character 'gang' it is indeed the chinese way of describing the yogic indian practice 'mula bandha' 'root lock'. It also has the same importance in internal work. Longterm lifting of the anus would be detrimental, lifting the perineum on the other hand is correct. To each their own though.

"Definition: Root lock. The first of three interior body “locks” used in asana and pranayama practice to control the flow of energy. To activate mula bandha, exhale and engage the pelvic floor, drawing it upwards towards your navel. If you don’t know how to access the pelvic floor, think of it as the space between the pubic bone and the tailbone. Initially you may need to contract and hold the muscles around the anus and genitals, but really what you want is to isolate and draw up the perineum, which is between the anus and genitals. Do not hold your breath. Engaging mula bandha while doing yoga poses can give the postures an extra lift. This is especially useful when jumping."

fwiw the 'Jhalandara Bandha' 'throat lock' is also the same as 'lifting through the crown of the head (baihui point), and tucking the chin.' which closes off 'fengfu' and 'yamen' points (gv 15 &16) which opens 'dazhui' point gv 14, promoting smooth flow out to the hands, not to mention obvious benefit of strengthening the neck and keeping the chin/jaw low.


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:54 am

Ai, there is the rub! . . ."hold in ('sink') the chest, raise ('pluck') the back" should be a movement, and not a stationary position. It is a spinal movement (wave) coordinated together with footwork and breathing - just as "tucking in tailbone" is not a stationary position but is the 'natural' movement of deep breathing when the lower spine is coordinated with breathing and footwork together with the opening of the gua. There is only one way to treat and move the lower spine if you breath deep and use taiji footwork.

If you treat the top or the bottom as stiff or static you will noy be able to breath as deep as you should and with a chinese vocabulary: you will not be able to move and direct the qi sufficiently. Sure, relaxing in a lazy and static position will feel good and comfortable, but if you are going to treat a taiji form as dynamic martial art training, you will definitively learn the wrong kind of movements (you will not learn how to apply the movements or actually use them in battle). Relaxation and softness in Taiji must be deep, flexible, dynamic: a most vital quality.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby kreese on Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:23 am

Great reference, Graham. Now I know what the Stahara is...
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby dragontigerpalm on Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:45 am

kreese wrote:Great reference, Graham. Now I know what the Stahara is...

Ditto. That was a good read. 8-)
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