Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Ben on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:09 pm

Sink the chest and pluck up the back. The chest is depressed naturally inward so that the ch'i can sink to the tan-t'ien [field of elixir]. Don't expand the chest: the ch'i gets stuck there and the body becomes top-heavy. The heel will be too light and can be uprooted. Pluck up the back and the ch'i sticks to the back; depress the chest and you can pluck up the back. Then you can discharge force through the spine. You will be a peerless boxer.


I've been tinking a lot about this lately. Up to now I haven't been sinking the chest. I tried it a little and it feels identical to what Sam Chin showed me in the ILC seminar. I have a more upright posture that the ILC posture but its a more rounded feeling in the sholders and feels more ... solid... I guess.

How many people who do TCC sink the chest this way?

Also Ashe, I remember Mr.Chin saying that tucking in the ribs(or however he described it) seals the breath, so if you get hit you won't get the wind knocked out of you. Is that correct? I may not remember correctly.

Anyone feel free to add anything I'm not thinking of. :)
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:20 pm

I have no idea what sink the chest means.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Dr.Rob on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:40 pm

Its a pirate term...for getting rid of gold when at high seas??

Sorry I couldn't resist...
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby nianfong on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:58 pm

the term is 含胸拔背. it's not sink so much as "hold in" 含. not holding in strongly, just holding in, like holding a lozenge in your mouth. Not squishing it, but just holding it. not slouching. you kinda need to be shown.
"pluck up" is to pull straight up. it's like pulling your spine straight up.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:09 am

I like thinking of it as 'shelter' the chest, even if that's not the exact translation. I think that works better in English for me, it implies a more natural position with less force being used than 'hold in' does. YMMV.

The whole thing is intimately related to the breath and 'sinking the chi to the dantien'. If you change the focus of the breathing to the dan tien area, so that area expands when you breathe in and contracts when you breathe out (that's 'normal' dan tien breathing, there's reverse as well, but let's not get into that) then your upper chest will natural soften and have the feeling of hollowing - so it's not so much something you actively 'do', it's more like something that happens as a result of doing something else. The old Wu Wei idea of doing without doing. The whole posture in Tai Chi should be as natural as possible without any artificial additions - but it does require effort (including mental effort) to do, paradoxically - you have to make an effort to be as relaxed as possible, usually by getting rid of the unnatural habits we pick up through doing things like typing on this computer or misusing our bodies in other ways, such as stiff shoulders and neck.

If you let the upper chest expand as you perform the movements then you are effectively 'letting the chi rise up' rather than 'sinking it to the dan tien'. In Tai Chi you need to make your centre of gravity the dan tien area, and this requires letting the tension in the upper body release downwards (of course, you still need that opposite feeling of being drawn upwards from the crown that's talked about in the classics, and in the above quote as "pluck up the back", otherwise you slump, or get that crumpled 'old man' look I see too often in Tai Chi practitioners, which is not good either IMHO).

One of the meanings of chi is air, or breath, so you can see how 'sinking the chi to the dantien' relates to breathing from that area, and how 'letting the chi rise up' relates to the breath being too high in the body. All the posture requirements of Tai Chi (as featured in Yang Cheng-Fu's 10 Important Points essay) are all part of the same thing really, so it can sometimes be misleading to consider them on their own as separate things - or as Mike Sigman said:

In relation to the tail-bone tuck (which I think really just says that the tail-bone should point downward and says nothing about "tuck"), one way of looking at that requirement is that it's for the same reason the gua is sunk and relaxed, the back is relaxed, the head is suspended, the armpit is rounded, the crotch is rounded, the chest is hollowed and the back rounded slightly, and the stomach is relaxed. They are all done to affect the same thing which connects them all.



All this being said, there are a wide variety of interpretations of what these things mean amongst the different styles. Amongst Tai Chi stylists (mainly from Yang Lu Chan lines, since Chen guys seem to want to be a law unto themselves :) ) I think my view above is by far the most common IMHO, but you can counter pose it with the view amongst some Bagua stylists that the chest should be expanded outwards, but this seems to be part of a complete system and way of doing things that is very complete and detailed, and includes circulating energy in directions counter to the more usual way of doing it.

It's also interesting to read Tim Cartmell's views on the subject - he's not an advocate of holding in or sheltering the chest at all, and he has no problem demonstrating his martial prowess using his body methods, so there's obviously more than one way to skin the cat, as the old saying goes.

Hope that provides some help.

G
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:46 am

I forgot to post an image - you can see this guy had it going on nicely in his later postures. ;) Notice that he's a big guy, yet look how light, relaxed and nimble his postures look. You can see he has 'sink the chi to the dan tien' and 'a lively energy rises to the head top' going on in equal measure. Very nice.

Image
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Ben on Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:28 am

Thanks guys. I have a couple things to say but will have to do it when I get home from work. I hate that I can get on this forum at work! -argh-
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Franklin on Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:29 am

for me at least the biggest part of getting the chest to sink has nothing to do with the chest. but instead with aligning the spine right
in fact if you actually sink the chest physically it can lead to impairment of your organs because of the pressure put on them. This was shown to us in TCM school.

To get the chest to sink in you have to focus on your back.
if you raise your head as if suspended by a string (chin tucks back slightly like you are touching our neck to your collar)
and feel everything hang from the top of the head
even the pelvis hangs downward
it will feel like the spine is very straight
and it will feel like the chest is hollow but without it caving in

if you have the position right it kind of feeling like you have a turtles back (but without hunching over)

the position is easiest to feel when practicing zhan zhuang in the wuji posture
harder to keep when moving through the form

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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:16 am

含 'han' or make the space/room to hold or contain something (concave the chest in this case) is also developing a certain force or body mechanic that is used in a lot of different jins, we call it 'han li' or containing force, think of the connection between both arms and the chest when you are squeezing something in between your arms like if you're using bolt-cutters, hauling bricks where you squeeze 10 at a time, or squeezed a ball between the hands. The constant isometric-like development that comes from doing 'han xiong ba bei' also develops the opposite force where both hands can expand outward. These 2 are very basic forces that are seen in a lot of the jins in the IMA's and other arts.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Dmitri on Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:46 am

nianfong wrote:the term is 含胸拔背. it's not sink so much as "hold in" 含. not holding in strongly, just holding in, like holding a lozenge in your mouth. Not squishing it, but just holding it. not slouching. you kinda need to be shown.
"pluck up" is to pull straight up. it's like pulling your spine straight up.

Thanks for that man.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Harvey on Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:47 am

I always see it as attaching the string to the back bow and then relaxing the waist it putting the tension onto it. I understand it as opening the shoulder gates but then thats just me
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Interloper on Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:58 am

I would go with Graham's "shelter the chest." As though you are sheltering a small child or infant with your body as you hold it in your arms. It creates a subtle "bow" shape in your back that is part of the stretching/slack-out-of-the-spine process that facilitates energy transfer.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby dragontigerpalm on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:08 am

In ILC it is generally referred to as maintaining suction.
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby Buddy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:36 am

Hmmm. I think not "sink" the chest, but rather pull the spine back. Sink the chest gives you the visual but not the practical (how it really works).
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Re: Sink the Chest - Yang Cheng Fu 10 points

Postby charles on Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:25 am

;D
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