The Dilemma that your Chen taiji is the 'real fighting art'

[JAB]

The number of Chinese martial arts schools producing fighters is small bro. It is not limited to Taiji!
Jake

[johnrieber]

someone who reckons that chen style is the only taiji that can be a powerful fighting art should probably relax, and get out and visit with folks a little more.

that said, an old teacher of mine who taught several styles encouraged people who were coming at the art from other styles to learn chen, as the martial applications and power development were more clearly visible in the style. some people may not agree. but he contended that if the martial aspects that are kind of hidden in your yang style elude you, and you practice chen form for a couple of years, the experience will transform you understanding of yang style. and (among other things) help you develop that 'needle in the cotton' stuff.

just my two cents.

[JAB]

Welcome John. Well afterall Chen is the mother of the all variations of Taiji, so what you say makes sense.
Cheers
Jake

[qiphlow]

someone who reckons that chen style is the only taiji that can be a powerful fighting art should probably relax, and get out and visit with folks a little more.

that said, an old teacher of mine who taught several styles encouraged people who were coming at the art from other styles to learn chen, as the martial applications and power development were more clearly visible in the style. some people may not agree. but he contended that if the martial aspects that are kind of hidden in your yang style elude you, and you practice chen form for a couple of years, the experience will transform you understanding of yang style. and (among other things) help you develop that 'needle in the cotton' stuff.

just my two cents.

hmm...
interesting idea. i can see how that would work.

[wiesiek]

The number of Chinese martial arts schools producing fighters is small bro. It is not limited to Taiji!
Jake

so
it will be interesting to see judo olimpic fights in B.
Chinese martial arts schools will try to take all goods , im shure

[Darth Rock&Roll]

There is only one condition by which you can claim your art is a fighting art and that is if it is currently and regularly used in the act of actually fighting.

Otherwise, you are just exercising. period.

[CaliG]

If you're going to fight in competitions at some point you have to own up to the fact that you will suffer some serious injuries somewhere in your career.

I think most taiji people do taiji because on some level they are concerned at their health so I am not surprised that you don't see a lot of taiji people in competitions.

[cerebus]

If you're going to fight in competitions at some point you have to own up to the fact that you will suffer some serious injuries somewhere in your career.

Well, not necessarily. Proper training and preparation can keep you from sustaining any "serious" injuries, though bumps, bruises, etc are certainly to be expected....

[CaliG]

If you're going to fight in competitions at some point you have to own up to the fact that you will suffer some serious injuries somewhere in your career.

Well, not necessarily. Proper training and preparation can keep you from sustaining any "serious" injuries, though bumps, bruises, etc are certainly to be expected....

Yeah, that's true Troy sparring can be safe. As you know, I'm all for sparring and grappling in the gym or with friends in the park. In fact I think if you aren't training live on some level you're missing out.

But when sparring goes from getting feedback on your skills to winning at all costs the risk of injury rises.

For example, professional MMA fighters do deal with lots of injuries. For example if you watch Ultimate Fighter you always see these fighters dealing with their injuries.

I suppose there are other styles of fighting but MMA is the cloesst thing to real fight and if you're going to train like the best MMA fighters they are going to injuries in the ring and just in training that the average martial artist probably won't deal with as much or as often anyway.

[CaliG]

As far as the importance of live training I think Matt Thorton says is best, but I don't agree with his view that form as worthless. Afterall shadow boxing is basically working on your form.

[cerebus]

Hey Greg. I guess I was just not so much in agreement with the idea that "serious" (in my mind crippling or life-threatening) injuries are guaranteed. I mean, I began fighting full-contact competitively as an amateur boxer back in 1983 and here I am in 2008 still doing it (now in Lei Tai matches using my traditional Hsing-I), and fortunately have never (yet) had any serious injuries (and hopefully never will, knock on wood). In fact I've had worse injuries from other types of training than I've ever had from full-contact fighting.

Yes, the risk of such injuries is certainly higher for competitive fighters, but it's a risk that a person can have a good deal of control over (as long as they don't fight people who are so much better than them that it's not even a contest).

[CaliG]

Right Troy, again I'm not saying don't do live training or don't spar.

I'm just trying to answer one reason why perhaps you don't see that many taiji and CMA people in general entering the cage.

I understand that you have a different idea of serious injuries, but for me for example if I were to break my arm as the WC guy did in the park or throw out my back as you did before the match I wouldn't be able to do the work I do and my family wouldn't have any money coming in.

Of course that doesn't stop me from sparring and grappling (in fact I wish I could work with you guys some more but the 2 hour commute is a long time when you have a baby at home starting to crawl) but it does make me think twice about entering into competitions where the other guy might not care that I'll be out of work for a couple of weeks if he injures me.

I should also point out that I think you can improve your skill without having to take it to the competitive level everytime you spar or grapple. For example one of the reasons I like to slow things down sometimes when I spar is I find when people spar at top speeds sometimes they'll just run away, if someone is doing that what benefit are they getting?

The same is true for BJJ. A lot of times people start on their knees and might spend 2 minutes trying to take the other guy down from there. What a waste of time! No one is ever going to fight off their knees. People would be better off starting from their feet or starting from a position so they can get right to business.

But both of these things happen in highly competitive settings, just look at what happens to push hands in tournaments. My point is I'm not so much into winning as much as trying to find the best way to maximize the benefits of my training time. But if its someone else's thing that's cool, some of the best fighters I've met were/are competitors and I like sparring with them because I know they've reached a certain standard in their skills, like you.

Just my 2 cents.

Good times,

G

[qiphlow]

or maybe most of the folks training "traditional" MA aren't looking to sport fighting as the reason for their training. my guess is those folks will find themselves gravitating to a western boxing or mma gym or something similar.

[chicagoTaiJi]

Welcome John. Well afterall Chen is the mother of the all variations of Taiji, so what you say makes sense.
Cheers
Jake

Do you know if the Chen village martial arts （i.e. pao chui) were called taijiquan before Yang family's martial arts became famous?

[JAB]

Dude, I am the wrong person to be asking about the history of Taiji on any level. I barely know the Sun Taiji history and that is just over 100 years old!!! Plenty of folks here that can answer though. Tom knows more about the history of Chen Taiji then the Chen family does!!
Cheers
Jake