The Dilemma that your Chen taiji is the 'real fighting art'

[chicagoTaiJi]

Is there any authoritative history of that? Yang learned in Chen village, but it doesn't mean he learned necessarily learned the Chen family martial art. That's really what I am after historical references to.

e.g.: Did Jiang Fa and Chen Changxing teach the same thing now widely known as Chen tai ji?

any historical references appreciated

You are probably alluding to the story that Chen Changxing learned Taiji from Jiang Fa and taught it to Yang Luchan. The problem is not that there are historical writings denying this, there simply are no records whatsoever pointing towards the event happening. The person Jiang Fa is controversial; the Chen Family knows someone by that name, but he was a contemporary of Chen Wangting, not Chen Changxing. There is no mention of anyone called Jiang Fa related to Chen Changxing in Chen family chronicles. Also, if there was indeed a tradition of Taijiquan coming from outside Chen-village - especially one actually bearing the name Taijiquan and dating back centuries - then it begs the question why Qi Jiguang never mentioned it (nor any of the other prolific writers of the 16th to 18th century), and how it was possible to actually name a martial art Taijiquan, since the characters Taiji appeared in the name of the Qing Emperor Hong Taiji, which means it would have been forbidden. So it makes sense that the first time the term Taijiquan appears was in the late 19th/early 20th century.
As for Jiang teaching Chen teaching Yang Luchan. It is of course not possible to rule out the possibility that there was outside influence after Chen Wangting in the development of the Chen family martial art. In fact, I personally believe it is very likely that there was a lot more influence and changing and adapting. However, the "original story" about 19th century Jiang Fa includes the theme that Chen Changxing taught this super-duper martial art (which he learned from Jiang Fa, and which is claimed to have been superior to the Chen family art) ONLY to Yang Luchan, but not to his relatives - not even his own son(s). Given the importance of family relations in imperial China (and even today), this is a story I simply cannot believe in...

thanks for your useful information and perspective.

assuming the Yang family's martial art is indeed derived, at least in part, from Chen family's martial art, it still somewhat different.

was the name 'tai ji quan' initially given to the yang martial art and then later adopted by the chen family to also refer to their art, since the former technically has roots in the latter?

[Ron Panunto]

Yang learned in Chen village, but it doesn't mean he learned necessarily learned the Chen family martial art.

Jeez Chicago, even the Yang's admit that LuChan learned Chenjia after 18 years of study. They relate the story that he studied with the Chen's for 6 years then returned to his own village where he accepted a challenge from a famous martial artist and was soundly beaten. He then returned to Chen village and trained for another 6 years at which time he again returned to his hometown, and faught to a draw. Still unsatisfied he returned to Chen Village again and trained for another 6 years (now a total of 18 years training). He returned home again and this time soundly beat the challenger. He never returned to Chen village after that, but started teaching taiji on his own with the stipulation from the Chen's that he not teach Chen style directly. After his last stint in Chen village he was never beaten again and got the title of "Yang the unbeatable."

[Little Bai]

thanks for your useful information and perspective.

assuming the Yang family's martial art is indeed derived, at least in part, from Chen family's martial art, it still somewhat different.

was the name 'tai ji quan' initially given to the yang martial art and then later adopted by the chen family to also refer to their art, since the former technically has roots in the latter?

It's possible that it happened like that, yes. Of course, we cannot know wether the name Taijiquan existed within the Chen village before Yang Luchan or not, but the most likely chain of events is - in my opinion - that Yang's martial art was named Taijiquan, and since he said he learned from Chen Changxing, the term was used for Chen boxing as well.
As for the difference between the two: there are differences, but not only between Yang and Chen but also within both the Yang and the Chen systems. Some of these differences are in details only, but some are quite remarkable. It's impossible to know what exactly was practiced in Chen village at the time of Chen Changxing, or what exactly Yang learned and trained. There may have been some outward influence on Yang's style of course. In fact, I personally believe that his time in Beijing greatly influenced his ideas and his training, probably through exchange with experts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Tongbeiquan. Given that many of the postures of contemporary Yang-style are more similiar in shape to Xingyi and Bagua rather than to the longfist-like stances of Chen-style, the idea that Yang incorporated elements of the other 'internal' styles seems credible.
If I'm not mistaken, the history of the style Bagua-Taijiquan claims that their style stems from a direct student of Yang Luchan, if not from Yang himself. If Yang himself had already 'experimented' with Bagua elements, it would explain a lot.

[chicagoTaiJi]

thanks for your useful information and perspective.

assuming the Yang family's martial art is indeed derived, at least in part, from Chen family's martial art, it still somewhat different.

was the name 'tai ji quan' initially given to the yang martial art and then later adopted by the chen family to also refer to their art, since the former technically has roots in the latter?

It's possible that it happened like that, yes. Of course, we cannot know wether the name Taijiquan existed within the Chen village before Yang Luchan or not, but the most likely chain of events is - in my opinion - that Yang's martial art was named Taijiquan, and since he said he learned from Chen Changxing, the term was used for Chen boxing as well.
As for the difference between the two: there are differences, but not only between Yang and Chen but also within both the Yang and the Chen systems. Some of these differences are in details only, but some are quite remarkable. It's impossible to know what exactly was practiced in Chen village at the time of Chen Changxing, or what exactly Yang learned and trained. There may have been some outward influence on Yang's style of course. In fact, I personally believe that his time in Beijing greatly influenced his ideas and his training, probably through exchange with experts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Tongbeiquan. Given that many of the postures of contemporary Yang-style are more similiar in shape to Xingyi and Bagua rather than to the longfist-like stances of Chen-style, the idea that Yang incorporated elements of the other 'internal' styles seems credible.
If I'm not mistaken, the history of the style Bagua-Taijiquan claims that their style stems from a direct student of Yang Luchan, if not from Yang himself. If Yang himself had already 'experimented' with Bagua elements, it would explain a lot.

thanks. the history is indeed muddy, especially for not being so incredibly long ago.