Baguazhang Neigong Postures

[Miro]

Onyomi, I'm just curious how you'd know he has an advanced level of internal development?

Very easily - you can see it. One of my neidan teachers (Taoist priest) was glowing like he just came from Chernobyl... When I first met my teacher He Jinghan, I immediately chose him to be my MA teacher because I could see he can "move inside" (although at that time I did not understand what exactly he does and why, I was clearly able to see that he indeed "moves inside"). He was able to "move inside" better than any of my other teachers, including some famous ones like Fu Shuyun, He Fusheng etc. - I stopped to practiced with them and focused only on HJH. Chen Yunsan from Taiwan (he is now known in England too thanks to Alex Kozma who arranged his seminars) is also advanced and his attainment is clearly visible too...

From another thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12906&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
When he was twenty-eight, Tesshu was defeated by a swordsman named Asari Gimei and became his student. Although larger and younger, Tesshu could not match his teacher’s mental state. During training sessions, Asari was known to force Tesshu all the way to the back of the dojo, then out into the street, knock him to the ground, and then slam the dojo door in his face. Confronted with this challenge, Tesshu increased his efforts in training and meditation continuously. Even when he was eating or sleeping, Tesshu was constantly thinking about fencing. He would sometimes wake up at night, jump out of bed, and get his wife to hold a sword so he could explore a new insight. Then, one morning in 1880, when he was 45 years old, Tesshu attained enlightenment while sitting in zazen. Later that morning he went to the dojo to practice Kendo with Asari. Upon seeing Tesshu, Asari recognized at once that Tesshu had reached enlightenment. Asari, declined to fence with Tesshu, acknowledging Tesshu’s attainment by saying, “You have arrived.” Shortly after this, Tesshu went on to open his own school of fencing.

Even people who can not see it, many of them can somehow feel it. Especially martial arts practitioners should - most of MA (and life generally) is about feeling...

Miro

[D_Glenn]

I agree with you when you cite TCM theory (female and male cysles of seven and eight). However, I have a big problem with your extrapolation of TCM into Western terms (and with the whole extrapolation of those cycles into closing/opening mingmen). I am not a certified doctor of TCM but I doubt very much that any Chinese doctor of TCM would agree with you that jing correlates to hormones.
Simple question: when you get during the fight a rush of adrenaline, would you say that it is jing? Do you transform hormones into qi and shen?
Sorry, I do not think you are on the right track.

If you translate jing as hormones, then I think your statement above is incorrect - because it is possible to feel them or their level (at least some of them, f. e. level of adrenaline). But maybe I am wrong or maybe you can explain to me more clearly why jing should be hormones.

Actually the closest correlation to 精 'Jing' in Western medicine is what are called the 'Polyamines' in the human body and they are a key part of the process in the creation of Hormones, energy, and all the various Neurotransmitters such as epinephrine etc. along with many other components that make up the human body. Large amounts of polyamines in the seminal fluid and uterus, menstrual blood, and placenta. Look it up. You might find it very interesting.

So - no Jing isn't hormones per say but it is involved with their production and when they and how much is produced.

Now everyone will have 精 'Jing' for their whole life so they could continue this practice after this age where their 精 'Jing' begins to naturally decline and they will likely still feel like the greatest, healthiest person in the world because their levels of 氣 'Qi' and 神 'Shen' (spirit/ mental function) are higher than any normal person. The problem though is that they're now borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, their 氣 'Qi' is already at a great enough level and they really need to shift focus back to cultivating and conserving 精 'Jing' even though they will not physically or mentally feel the need to. If they just continue keeping 'mingmen' point closed-off for even a small amount during a day they will not be able to really feel any loss of 精 'Jing' because their 氣 'Qi' and 神 'Shen' are completely masking/hiding it. So the only way we can see a disturbance in the 精 'Jing' is in any subtle physical deformation, slow growth, or abnormal sexual dimorphism...

So if I understand you correctly, you say that one should/needs to open mingmen so that he will not transform all his jing into qi and shen (otherwise he will die)? Is this really what you want to say? And if you really want to say that, do you really believe it, please? (Just asking because all this seems to me unbelievable, I do not mean any offense, please bear in mind I am not native speaker of English.)

Miro

Simple answer is no I did not write that they would die, I wrote exactly what you just quoted which again was " see a disturbance in the 精 'Jing' is in any subtle physical deformation, slow growth, or abnormal sexual dimorphism..."

In terms of cultivating Jing the answer is yes you need to keep mingmen point open so the body naturally functions correctly. In the Daoist/buddhist and IMA paradigms we are taught to tuck the tailbone, which opens mingmen point. Also at around the age of roughly 48 you can also then begin to focus your mind/'Yi' on the actual mingmen point rather than 'Qihai' point at the front of the dantian.

Normally when working on the cultivation of 'qi' we will close with both palm's 'Laogong' point placed on top of 'qihai' point and focus the mind there. When you get older another variation of that is to have the hands placed behind the back so the areas of the 'laogong' points are now covering mingmen point.


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[D_Glenn]

I just found an interesting tidbit in the Pakua Journal.

When we tuck the tailbone under and pull out the lower lumbar part of the back (Ba Bei) and concave the chest (han xiong) what we are also doing is lining up Bai Hui point at the crown of the head with Huiyun point at the perineum and this opens mingmen point in the back.

The operative word in the combination Shan Yueh is
Shan, or mountain. The center pillar of the character
represents the vertical line generated by the alignment
of the acupuncture points Pai Hui (at the peak of the
head) and Hui Yin (center of the crotch underneath) when
the Ming Men (rear tan t’ien) is “opened.” (ref.: Pa Pei:
pull out the back, i.e. “open” Ming Men). Combinations of
word meaning and symbol meaning appear throughout
Pa Kua Chang literature.
A “clear” translation of the phrase would be
“Posture should be erect, vertical, with ch’i sunk to
the tan t’ien, Pai Hui and Hui Yin aligned, and Ming
Men pulled out.” -- James F. Keenan Pakua Newsletter 1-3

James F. Keenan has been a student of Chinese
culture, language and literature since 1969. From 1970
through 1972, he was assigned to the military language
school in Monterey, CA, where he was trained as a
translator. In 1974, he attended the Master’s program in
Chinese at the University of Pittsburgh. A 24 year veteran
of martial arts, Mr. Keenan was the first non-Asian Pa
Kua Chang teacher to be featured in a national martial
arts magazine article (Black Belt, May, 1977). From
1985 through 1987, he manned the China Desk for the
Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel. He now works
for the Massachusetts Dept. of Education as a specialist
in bilingual education. He is currently on leave from his
Ph.D. studies in cross cultural communication. -- March 1991.

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[Tesshu]

I just found an interesting tidbit in the Pakua Journal.

When we tuck the tailbone under and pull out the lower lumbar part of the back (Ba Bei) and concave the chest (han xiong) what we are also doing is lining up Bai Hui point at the crown of the head with Huiyun point at the perineum and this opens mingmen point in the back.

Nothing new. This is necessary if you want to leave the vertical plane without "leaning".

[shawnsegler]

Once your bodies open enough you can "feel" your relation to gravity well enough without aligning vertically like that but I think there's a stage where it's important to focus on it.

Best,

S

[D_Glenn]

I just found an interesting tidbit in the Pakua Journal.

When we tuck the tailbone under and pull out the lower lumbar part of the back (Ba Bei) and concave the chest (han xiong) what we are also doing is lining up Bai Hui point at the crown of the head with Huiyun point at the perineum and this opens mingmen point in the back.

Nothing new. This is necessary if you want to leave the vertical plane without "leaning".

Nothing new is the point, however in relation to this thread the key line is: "opens mingmen point in the back"

pull out the back, i.e. “open” Ming Men). Combinations of
word meaning and symbol meaning appear throughout
Pa Kua Chang literature.
A “clear” translation of the phrase would be
“Posture should be erect, vertical, with ch’i sunk to
the tan t’ien, Pai Hui and Hui Yin aligned, and Ming
Men pulled out.”

That is what is being discussed here.


.

[Tesshu]

Nothing new. This is necessary if you want to leave the vertical plane without "leaning".

Nothing new is the point, however in relation to this thread the key line is: "opens mingmen point in the back"

pull out the back, i.e. “open” Ming Men). Combinations of
word meaning and symbol meaning appear throughout
Pa Kua Chang literature.
A “clear” translation of the phrase would be
“Posture should be erect, vertical, with ch’i sunk to
the tan t’ien, Pai Hui and Hui Yin aligned, and Ming
Men pulled out.”

That is what is being discussed here.


.

Still nothing new. The phrase you mention directly relates to the opening of the central channel as well which is via "pulling out" the Ming Men. Still interesting

[gerard]

Onyomi, I'm just curious how you'd know he has an advanced level of internal development?

Very easily - you can see it. One of my neidan teachers (Taoist priest) was glowing like he just came from Chernobyl

Certainly, that's what I saw the very first time I attended a Vipassana retreat in Chiangmai Mai and I saw this lady after she completed a 3 week retreat (last three days is a 24 hour non-stop walking and sitting meditation, no sleep). She looked like a new born We can only imagine what Gautama Buddha would have looked like 2,500 years ago...probably like a mini-sun!!

Strict celibacy, morality, compassion, Metta and continuous mindfulness will deliver the goods.

Peace my friend, I hope your Bagua practice is bringing you more insight and peace.

Best!