Baguazhang Neigong Postures

[D_Glenn]

There are some key aspects in Baguazhang's Neigong Postures that should be understood so one can adjust their own practice to the stage of life they're in according to their age. Dong Haichuan used some fundamental cultivation practices from Buddhist and Daoist traditions which are based on Traditional Chinese Medicine theory of the cycles of 精 'Jing' (essence) in the body. Women are on a 7 year cycle and men are on an 8 year cycle in terms of sexual development, puberty, maturity, fertility, eventual decline of sexual function, and ultimately death occur. In women this governs when the menses appear and when menopause starts. In men the cycle is related to natural levels of Testosterone in the body where age 16 is the beginning, sexual and physical maturity at the age of 24, the first sign of decline in hormone levels at age 32, again another drop at 40, 48, 56, and 64 is considered the point where certain cultivation practices will no longer be useful or effective, then the average lifespan of a male at age 72.

There are specific Neigong postures that are used between the age of 16 to 24 where one is instructed and made to hold postures with the tailbone untucked, causing the buttocks to stick out, the lumbar with a strong curve in it, and shoulders pulled back, which all serve to close off the Mingmen Point (Gate of Life) located below the L2 vertebrae. This closing of the Mingmen point is done to channel and promote the conversion of already maxed out levels of 精 'Jing' (essence) into the cultivation of 氣 'Qi' (energy) rather than the normal process of being pent up sex drive that needs fulfillment and excess heat in the body - anger, acne, etc. This is also a fundamental practice in the training of Shaolin Monks during these years as it's the only way for a man to remain celibate during this time.

From the ages of around 24 to 56 it is important that the Neigong practice begins to completely shift into the opposite posture where now one needs to stand in either a neutral normal postion or with the taibone tucked under, the buttocks rolled under, the lumbar is rounded to the back, the chest concaved, the shoulders are forward, and focusing the mind/'Yi' on Qihai Point (Sea of Qi) the front point of the Dantian. This will now open Mingmen Point and promote the conservation of 精 'Jing' (essence) in the body which will ensure the proper hormonal balance and hormonal changes in the body. There are several examples of Martial Art schools where it's clear that the practitioner's training with the original teacher ended prematurely and they were not told to change their posture which results in a dangerous hormonal imbalance where Testosterone is low and Estrogen is high which is seen in little to no upper body muscular development, lower body muscle development of large gluteus maximus and thighs, fat deposition in the lower body rather than upper body, basically the body is too high in Estrogens and female thyroid hormones.

Here's some clips of a guy who was clearly well trained as a young man in the Shaolin tradition but kept practicing that same Neigong posture throughout his life:






Around the age of 56 or so one can start focusing their Intent/Yi on Mingmen point rather than Qihai point (dantian) in order to help the conservation of Jing and help to promote the conversion of Jing into 神 'Shen' (spirit/ mental function) to ensure the physical and mental health and the living a longer life.



So if you understand how Mingmen works, especially in regards to testosterone then you could understand why 'closing off mingmen point' will not be good for a man after the age of 24. The effect of the posture on the lower back and closing 'mingmen' (gate of life) will dampen the 'fire of life'/ 'minsterial fire'. You could see why the goal of this preliminary practice wouldn't be revealed to the student until after they went through it because they may feel manipulated and would rather be enjoying the company of a young vibrant woman. The dire problems when this practice is taken too far and past this age are because 'The fire at the gate of life' provides the original 'Yuan Qi' of the body and motive force/'Dong Qi' which is where the the Ren, Du, and Chong meridians originate from. Normally men will grow fat in the abdomen, while women grow fat below the waist so it doesn't interfere with the uterus and it appears that this practice can also changes the meridian's function in the man to the point that it causes fat to be deposited below the waist.

Neigong and it's lifelong benefits or severe detriments are nothing to be taken lightly. It's your own body. Research, question, and get a second opinion about any Neigong, Qigong, Daoyin, or Martial Practice you are undertaking. Is the teacher qualified? Does the teacher embody what you want to also physically look like? Does the teacher embody the same mentality that you wish to have? Only if the answer is yes should you undertake the same Neigong practices.


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[I-mon]

Thanks dude that's an interesting take on things. I don't buy it exactly the way you're selling it, by any means, but it's really interesting stuff to think about and for sure the way we use this crucial area has far-reaching implications on many levels.

[NoSword]

Excellent post as usual, echoes some of my own thoughts on things and serves as a validation.

AK

[lazyboxer]

This is extremely interesting and plausible - it's how almost all modern wushu is taught, which derives from a curriculum designed for Chinese schoolchildren. Most of them never go on to train beyond performance level, which is where wushu is presently stuck.

What I've named the "monkey's bum" style of baguazhang exemplified in varying degrees by He Jinghan and others is presumably how it may have been taught to youngsters - Master He, for instance, has written that his teacher studied with Gong Baotian in his teens and twenties, and calls his style the 'open[ing the] body' method. I've always assumed it was an alternative way of practising rather than an aberration, so am glad to see your clarification and corroboration. The transmission of force also is very much dependent of how you manage your lower spine and pelvic region, which connect the legs and feet to the chest, belly and arms.

But cultivating the internal requires relaxed and opened lumbar vertebrae, so I don't see how that approach can work. Sticking out the buttocks also inhibits development of the right sort of leg strength, as anyone who's been shown how to stand properly is often surprised to discover.

[D_Glenn]

This is extremely interesting and plausible - it's how almost all modern wushu is taught, which derives from a curriculum designed for Chinese schoolchildren. Most of them never go on to train beyond performance level, which is where wushu is presently stuck.

What I've named the "monkey's bum" style of baguazhang exemplified in varying degrees by He Jinghan and others is presumably how it may have been taught to youngsters - Master He, for instance, has written that his teacher studied with Gong Baotian in his teens and twenties, and calls his style the 'open[ing the] body' method. I've always assumed it was an alternative way of practising rather than an aberration, so am glad to see your clarification and corroboration. The transmission of force also is very much dependent of how you manage your lower spine and pelvic region, which connect the legs and feet to the chest, belly and arms.

But cultivating the internal requires relaxed and opened lumbar vertebrae, so I don't see how that approach can work. Sticking out the buttocks also inhibits development of the right sort of leg strength, as anyone who's been shown how to stand properly is often surprised to discover.

Yeah GBZ was only 26 years old when GBT died in 1943. Other students of GBT who were older and already had studied other styles were not taught the same posture.

Somethings are lost in translation, so don't quote me, but I'm fairly certain that Xie Peiqi said that Men Baozhen made him also train in the same 'open-body' posture around the age of 18 and that he wasn't given the reason for it until after he made him switch back to the normal 'closed-body' postures.

Gong Baotian
宫宝田（1870年－1943年），字少泺，山东省乳山市马石店镇青山村人。清末著名武术家，尹福之徒，尹派八卦掌的主要传人之一。
生平

宫宝田自幼家贫，曾进私塾念过四年书，之后因家境因素，至北京投靠其兄宫宝山，并在元亨利碓房米店当学徒。宫宝田进宫送米时，尹福见他资质不错，收为门徒，并领他拜见师祖董海川。因为董海川对宫宝田印象极佳，要尹福好好裁培他，尹福于是要宫宝田辞了米店工作，进宫跟着他练拳。宫宝田练功认真，得到师祖董海川与其他师叔的认同，对他多所指点，23岁那年，得到董海川授与的八卦掌谱，作为第二代传人的证明。宫宝田身形瘦小，貌不惊人，有“宫猴子”的绰号。

光绪23年（西元1897年），宫宝田接下尹福的工作，成为宫廷护卫首领，加封四品带刀侍卫，负责慈禧与光绪皇帝的人身安全。1900年，庚子事变，宫宝田保护慈禧与光绪皇帝逃出北京，护驾前往西安，因功赐穿黄马挂。但是宫宝田在此时对清廷的无能与宫廷斗争感到失望，1905年，辞官回到山东青山村，以授徒为生。他的兄长宫宝山当时早已回到家乡，开设把式场授徒，并要自己徒弟多向宫宝田请教，称宫宝田为二师父。在宫宝山因病过世后，宫宝田接下了他的把式场，继续传授拳术。

宫宝田为人沉默寡言，但是教学认真，武名远播。1922年，奉军张作霖邀请宫宝田担任奉军东三省巡阅使兼奉军总教练，实际上是请他担任自己的贴身保镖，并让宫宝田教导自己的儿子张学良及家中成员武功。1928年，国民党北伐，奉军退出北京，张作霖让宫宝田留在北京保护张学良，自己先一步回到东北，没料到在皇姑屯被日军设计炸死。在张学良接掌奉军之后，宫宝田辞职回到山东。

宫宝田回到山东之后，在海阳、牟平、烟台一带，组织起十几个八卦掌社，致力于传授八卦掌，指点后进，从此不再出远门。1931年，张骧伍驻山东黄县时，青山县民担心他的部队会侵扰乡间，因宫宝田在奉军中的地位甚高，请宫宝田出面与张骧伍协调，刘云樵在此时曾经从旁向他学习过八个月，但并没有正式拜师。
弟子

宫宝田传承尹派八卦掌，以罗汉拳为主要入门，不重招式，朴实无华。宫宝田的弟子甚多，其中著名的弟子有王壮飞、王明渠、宫宝斋等人。

______________________

Gong Baozhai
宫宝斋（1917年－1990年），山东省牟平县青山村人，宫宝田在台湾的主要传人之一，擅长八卦掌。
生平

宫宝斋是宫宝田的远房族弟，在辈份上要喊宫宝田堂兄，但是两人年纪相差二十多岁，只比宫宝田的幼子宫霜大二岁。因为幼时多病，父母让他跟着宫宝田练拳。三十岁时离开家乡，在莱阳的联合第八中学担任教师，也曾经在报社担任经理。后因战乱，随国民党军队撤退到台湾，在台北开设五金行为生。

宫宝斋在台湾并不以武技出名，相当低调，与刘云樵以师兄弟相称，两人经常彼此讨论八卦掌。刚到台湾时，宫宝斋曾经得过结核病，因生活困苦，回家休养，以勤练八卦掌而治愈，但是肺的三分之二皆已钙化。

弟子有何静寒。


Another source: 宮寶齋(子) 1917.12.02-1990.04.25? 山東(移民臺灣) ~ GBZ was born December 2nd, 1917, died April 25th, 1990.

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[NoSword]

Two more cents.

I really appreciate your posts for the way they elucidate the unity and coherence of CMA, TCM, and the traditional Chinese cosmology. One thing that the Chinese understand very well is the different seasons of life, and the necessity for practices to harmonize with them.

Yet, I'm lead to wonder: could there be any features of the modern world which might alter or invalidate this traditional schema? After all, the theoretical basis for TCM and CMA was formulated in an agrarian society with a more or less zero-growth economy, limited access to proper nutrition or modern medicine, manual labor as an omnipresent feature of life, and so on. Obviously, this is not the reality we face in the present day.

In general, the Chinese outlook on life tends to be very "zero-sum," as befits a zero-growth economy. I'm led to think of one traditional Chinese proverb which states that one should not attempt to learn any new skill after the age of thirty. I'm led as well to think of the role of jing in TCM, as an essentially precious and finite resource. This is the way that most traditional societies viewed the male sexual essence; as we know, modern society (for better or worse) sees things a little differently.

There is an interesting section in Shigehese Kuriyama's "The Expressiveness of the Body," a comparative history of Chinese and Western medicine, in which he discusses the contrasting outlooks of Western and Chinese exercise culture. The former tends to emphasize plenitude, and the need to dispose of excess waste products (think bloodletting and the modern obsession with calorie counting), while the latter emphasizes scarcity and depletion. This discrepancy dates far back before the modern era.

Could it be that our modern society, a with all of the features alluded to above, might imply a different balance of excess-purging and depletion- minimizing practices? Put a little more simply, do we simply have more steam which we need to blow off than our ancestors did? As Dave C. put it on his old blog, taiji is great if you eat nothing but white rice and vegetables and drink nothing but green tea; the rest of us need to do cardio.

I'm lead to think of my experience with my Tongbei teacher here. When I first starting learning CMA, I was duped by the "relay race" analogy, in which Shaolin is for kids, xingyi/bagua is for people in their 20's and 30's, and taiji is for old men. When I first began studying Tongbei, I was astonished to find that not only did my teacher emphasize Liu He Men Shaolin jibengong, under the assumption that learning Tongbei is worthless if you don't have a solid wushu foundation, but that my much older (40's) training partner had mastered it in a couple of years, getting down in the splits, kicking high in the air, and so on.

Now, perhaps he did irreparable damage to his internal qi as a consequence; but I kind of doubt it. I had been led to believe that learning this sort of stuff became impossible as an adult. But, lo and behold, I too was able to learn it, despite coming from a low athletic base, with a history of injury. Moreover, I feel a hell of a lot stronger for it; on account of the Shaolin stuff, I no longer have knee pain or a stiff lower back. The more I learn, the more I think that the conventional wisdom surrounding the aging process and its limitations is grossly overstated.

That's not to say that an adult can learn these sorts of skills in the same way as a young person -- he has to exercise a greater degree of moderation and intelligence. But it's definitely not impossible. Once again, perhaps there are long-term consequences which are not felt in the short run -- but this is basically a faith-based claim, unsupported by evidence.

Put most simply, if you can't arch your back and go low, how the hell are you going to round it and go low? You have to open up the body before you begin to close it in on itself.

Perhaps it is true that one cannot attain the highest levels of accomplishment in wushu starting as an adult -- the conventional wisdom states that there are a certain number of energetic gates in the body, the first of which closes when you lose your virginity. We in the West (especially America) come from a culture that says that anyone can do/be anything, which is obviously not always the case. But by the same token, Asian culture all too often says that nobody can be anything without the best teachers, the highest marks, the most single-minded and dedicated practice, and so forth. I think we are dealing with alpha and beta error here.

AK

[jonathan.bluestein]

This is a very interesting theory which I was not familiar with. Thanks a lot for the info!

I find one "flaw" in this theory - as humans live longer and longer, do the 7-8 year cycles still hold? If humans will reach a state where 100 years or more is the normal lifespan - wouldn't it change the cycle length? Israeli male average lifespan is already 78 years of age - 6 years more than in this theory. I'm also interested in what No Sword suggested, about the modern world society and lifestyle implications on this theory, which comes from a rural-agricultural society.

I wonder about closing the Ming Men point, as in Xing Yi all the ZZ practices focus on opening it, I think. Would you suggest this is bad in general for someone between the ages of 16-24, or only "bad" for someone this age trying to remain celibate?...

As for 32 being the age of Fertility - why is that, exactly? What makes you less fertile at say, the age of 26?

Which practice will not be considered useful after 64?

I'd add that hormonal imbalance in males will also cause the fat storage to be more in the area in the buttocks and thighs as in women's body, rather than primarily in the belly area when Testosterone levels are OK. Actually, having a Qi belly in a male while there's little fat storage in other areas should at least mean his Testosterone levels are normal :-P The guy in the videos clearly has a woman-like pear-shaped body That's... lame. I've seen many Taiji practitioners from China in videos who have this type of body.


No Sword:

I think cardio is wayyyy over-rated in Western society, and this is much due to Cardio also being a very good fitness business-venture. It's easy, almost everyone can do it, it's addictive (endorphins), and it simply sells well. I don't buy into the cardio craze at all. It's all marketing crap, including much of the research. Steady-state cardio is just a nice way to fuck up your joints and alignment once your genetics can no longer make up for the damage. Also bad for most people's walking/running patterns, since most people run with sports shoes, which distorts the natural way to run/walk. Running shoes also hurt Hamstring flexibility cause of the high heels. This is bad all over, and I won't even start on the hormonal imbalances extreme running can cause. I swore to never run long distances again in my life after boot-camp, and I intend to keep that promise.

I agree with you on the age-learning thing. If you have good genetics (even if you were not aware of it), they can get you a long way. My gongfu uncle has a 50 year old Baji student with little former experience in MA that manages to advance his skill - being that it's Baji Quan, this says a lot IMO.

[mattiabaldi]

Dantian in TCM have no relationship with the ''push down'' movement of the lower part of the back, which is typical in north CMAs. Same names for different things, the Qi of the meridians (when a chinese trad medic speak) is not the Qi of the CMAs, for example and so on. Many old masters use to speak about elements of TCM when we think they are speaking of MAs and viceversa for a never ending non sense confusion. Only if you study TCM you can understand that specific section, chinese masters have knowledge (different %) of all the aspects of the tradition and is not alw so easy understand about what is the conversation exactly. A common mistake is take all the words together and make a big mix trying to create a logical path where all of the elements easy become in our mind a big and final-right total of our [*]short knowledge which is about just one thing.


ciao

[NoSword]

No Sword:

I think cardio is wayyyy over-rated in Western society, and this is much due to Cardio also being a very good fitness business-venture. It's easy, almost everyone can do it, it's addictive (endorphins), and it simply sells well. I don't buy into the cardio craze at all. It's all marketing crap, including much of the research. Steady-state cardio is just a nice way to fuck up your joints and alignment once your genetics can no longer make up for the damage. Also bad for most people's walking/running patterns, since most people run with sports shoes, which distorts the natural way to run/walk. Running shoes also hurt Hamstring flexibility cause of the high heels. This is bad all over, and I won't even start on the hormonal imbalances extreme running can cause. I swore to never run long distances again in my life after boot-camp, and I intend to keep that promise.

Yeah, my point wasn't so much pertaining to cardio per se -- I haven't done any myself for a long time unless you count the cardio side-benefits of other practices. It was relating to the merits of vigorous 'external' exercise -- be it cardio, weight training, or contact sparring -- against which there is a strong prejudice in Chinese culture. I think there is something to this, and I also think that it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

AK

[NoSword]

At the risk of bringing back the old 'tuck vs. untuck' controversy, Paul Grilley's got an interesting article on the mingmen question. From http://www.yogajournal.com/for_teachers/1609:

<<Debunking the Tucked Pelvis

Current exercise culture demands we avoid curvature of the spine by the systematic tucking of the pelvis. Find out the origins of this myth and encourage your students to engage in the full range of lower spine motion in their practice.

By Paul Grilley


Bad News Ballet
The idea that a "tucked pelvis" is good for you comes from ballet. Ballerinas are taught to tuck their pelvis so they can spin on a straight axis. It is difficult to spin multiple times if the pelvis is not tucked. Ballerinas are also taught to tuck their pelvis so they can maximize the height and appearance of leg extensions. A tucked pelvis is necessary for a ballerina to perform her craft, but it is a decidedly unnatural movement to do all the time. Large numbers of ballet dancers end their careers with arthritic hips and sciatica due to this overemphasis on a tucked pelvis.

If ballet is bad for you, why imitate it?
Well, number one: not everything about ballet is bad for you. Much of ballet training is about balance, stretching, and learning to isolate movements. This is good for you. Number two: tucking the pelvis is a natural movement you should learn how to do. It only becomes destructive if you remain stuck in that position.

Why is the tucked pelvis of ballet so pervasive in other forms of exercise?
To answer this question, we must examine the recent history of exercise in this country. Back in the early 1970s, there wasn't much of an exercise culture. Running was about the biggest craze, and it didn't attract large numbers of the population. Women in particular often found themselves with a choice of boring calisthenics classes—or dance classes. Dance classes were much more fun and were usually taught by ex-dancers who had admirable physiques. But not everyone felt comfortable learning dance steps, so the next innovation was to simplify the steps and do calisthenics to music. Thus the aerobics craze was born. Once again, the teachers at the forefront of this movement were former dancers, trained for years in ballet technique.

In the last two decades, the exercise culture has blossomed into many different forms. Now there are classes in running, aerobics, weight lifting, spinning, swimming, dancing, and yoga. But in the aerobics and yoga worlds, the teachers are still predominately from a dance background. Many yoga teachers are dancers who do yoga to heal themselves, and they retain the visceral memories of their ballet teachers constantly yelling at them to tuck their pelvises. So these teachers repeat the same to their students. The irony of it is that old ballet teachers walk with a limp because overdoing the pelvic tuck has given them sciatica or arthritic hips.

Flat spine or curved spine?
The last two covers of Yoga Journal magazine feature photos of young women in deep backbends. This is the opposite movement to a tucked pelvis. The poses look beautiful and one can't help but admire the ease and range of motion of the models. But I doubt if anyone would think it healthy for someone to habitually hold their spine in this deep bend. If anyone attempted to do so, the discs in their back would degenerate painfully.

Constantly arching the spine is unhealthy. Constantly tucking the spine is unhealthy. So should we live our lives in a timid neutrality of spine position, neither tucking nor tilting the pelvis? The answer is an emphatic "No!" The neutral spine position is how office workers live their lives, and statistics show that 80 percent of them will suffer serious back problems.

To have a healthy spine, we must systematically move it through its full range of motion. This means sometimes we tuck the pelvis to flatten the spine, sometimes we tilt the pelvis to arch the spine, and sometimes we keep the spine neutral. This is the Taoist view of life, a constant alternation from one opposite to another. The contraction and expansion of the heart are opposites, but by alternating they are the Tao of circulation. The expansion and contraction of the lungs are opposites, but by alternating they are the Tao of breathing. Tucking and tilting the pelvis have opposite effects on the curve of the spine, but by alternating they are the Tao of posture.

Don't fight it
When practicing backbends such as the Cobra, don't try to tuck the pelvis, but let the spine arch. When practicing forward bends such as Paschimottanasana, don't try to tilt the pelvis, but let the spine round. These are normal movements for the lumbar spine, and to fight against them is to nullify the effects of the poses. Of course, overstretching an already injured spine could make it worse. But sooner or later, the goal of all physical rehabilitation is to regain the natural range of motion. Yoga practice helps us retain our full range of motion so we can easily alternate from a tucked pelvis with a straight spine to a tilted pelvis with an arched spine. Both these movements are necessary to maintain healthy posture.>>

[somatai]

interesting discussion.......it seems to me that the positions and postures are simply ways of connecting up the body and strengthening various lines of force throughout the body whole......since closing is the active(volitional) phase of the cycle it is worked with to integrate and strengthen the whole system.....so when training the postures are quite unnatural and difficult, but when simply being, the body is open and relaxed and free, because it has learned to bind and hold itself from center during practice.......it will unfold and find its natural shape as a result of the practice....if the body is open and free, the energy will flow unhindered and the individual will express the harmony and ease in being.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Yeah, my point wasn't so much pertaining to cardio per se -- I haven't done any myself for a long time unless you count the cardio side-benefits of other practices. It was relating to the merits of vigorous 'external' exercise -- be it cardio, weight training, or contact sparring -- against which there is a strong prejudice in Chinese culture. I think there is something to this, and I also think that it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

AK

Yes, I concur. Chinese teachers are usually too biased against any of these practices...

[jonathan.bluestein]

Dantian in TCM have no relationship with the ''push down'' movement of the lower part of the back, which is typical in north CMAs. Same names for different things, the Qi of the meridians (when a chinese trad medic speak) is not the Qi of the CMAs, for example and so on. Many old masters use to speak about elements of TCM when we think they are speaking of MAs and viceversa for a never ending non sense confusion. Only if you study TCM you can understand that specific section, chinese masters have knowledge (different %) of all the aspects of the tradition and is not alw so easy understand about what is the conversation exactly. A common mistake is take all the words together and make a big mix trying to create a logical path where all of the elements easy become in our mind a big and final-right total of our [*]short knowledge which is about just one thing.

Are you aware of the fact that virtually all of the lineage holders of Bagua from Dong Haichuan onwards were highly skilled TCM doctors? I think that Xie Peiqi, to which lineage D_Glenn belongs, was even more famous for his TCM than for his MA skills. So I wouldn't underestimate their opinions of the connections between TCM and Bagua as D_glenn describes here.

[jonathan.bluestein]

No Sword, regarding Paul Grilley:

I like him, but he talks lots of bullshit in that article.

Tucked pelvis causing "arthritic hips and sciatica"? Never heard about that stuff in relation to IMA. Maybe they tuck it forcefully in Ballet. In IMA you don't force the movement, so it doesn't create stress. Ballet has tons of other unhealthy practices or methods that can cause the abovementioned problems...

"No physical-training culture in America in the 1970s"?! WTF?! Martial Arts? Bodybuilding and Weight Lifting? even Powerlifting! What about American Football or Baseball? Is he out of his mind?! The man must have lived in a box during the 1970s...

[D_Glenn]

No Sword, It's important to understand that this is more referring to specifically holding a static position/ posture and standing there in place for several hours everyday or spending enough time with Mingmen point closed that it can effect the Jing. This has little bearing on movement which as your article points out moving the spine through it's full range of motion is the healthy way to move throughout one's whole lifetime.

The stages of Jing and it's effect on growth and development is in a normal environment the same. The prevalence of Estrogen mimicking substances in the modern world is certainly screwing things up especially for women. The Chinese are also aware of foods and herbs that contained chemicals that mimic our testosterone and estrogen and there's specific guidelines to when these should or shouldn't be used, whether males or females should take them, and during which seasons of the year they are harmful or helpful. An important thing that they also picked up on and which is the same in the modern Western world is that when taking in a large and steady amount of hormones from the diet it can turn off or diminish the body's natural production of these hormones, hence the cycling on and off of steriods and the need to taper on and off in Western science.

"I find one "flaw" in this theory - as humans live longer and longer, do the 7-8 year cycles still hold? If humans will reach a state where 100 years or more is the normal lifespan - wouldn't it change the cycle length? Israeli male average lifespan is already 78 years of age - 6 years more than in this theory. I'm also interested in what No Sword suggested, about the modern world society and lifestyle implications on this theory, which comes from a rural-agricultural society."

Our bodies need key nutrients to function on a day to day basis which ideally come from our diet which we can say is a getting nutrients from a postnatal source. If we don't eat or eat an incomplete diet then our bodies have alternate pathways to create key nutrients from our bodies natural stores. This is getting nutrients from a postnatal source. Having access to 3 healthy meals a day for the duration of one's whole lifetime is the ideal and most efficient 'Jing Conservation' that one could do. Some other variables are Genetics or the epi-genome that was inherited from the parents, sexual excess or not enough, exposure to carcinogens and oxididation, etc. Really complex topic but it's all mostly dealing with adding or shortening time at the end of the life but severe damage can screw up the cycle such as women with childhood cancers who undergo heavy chemotherapy are say going into menopause around the age 35 rather than 56. I don't really want to get into all this on the thread.

"I wonder about closing the Ming Men point, as in Xing Yi all the ZZ practices focus on opening it, I think."

Yes.

"Would you suggest this is bad in general for someone between the ages of 16-24, or only "bad" for someone this age trying to remain celibate?"
Only for someone specifically abstaining and specifically taking advantage of the high level of 'Jing' and trying to quickly convert 'Jing' to 'Qi'. This is the most efficient time in someone's life to practice cultivation as the amount of 'Jing' keeps gradually lowering after that and the time it takes to cultivate also gradually takes longer and longer.

As for 32 being the age of Fertility - why is that, exactly? What makes you less fertile at say, the age of 26?

I didn't say that. 24 is the prime time. 32 can equate to the man's 'biological clock" if they've never fathered any children and it's also the first time when we suddenly start feeling a loss of 'Jing' and come to that harsh realization that we're not invincible.

Which practice will not be considered useful after 64? Conversion of Jing to Qi. You had better done that before you reach this age. There's a lot of information in books but it's scattered a little here, a little there. Maybe I can find some online sources.

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