Tucking the coccyx in Chen Taiji

[jonathan.bluestein]

Well said, Charles.

In physiology, the tucking of the Coccyx is also called Posterior Hip Rotation.

Don't think so. I believe you're thinking of a posterior pelvic tilt.

Yes, you're right. Confused the two terms. My bad.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Hey Jonathan - what is the 5-10% when you don't tuck the coccyx?

I gave thought to it today in training. It seemed that 90% would be a better estimate than 95%. Still hard to tell.

ZZ, Shi Li, Se Bu Pan Gen - make up about 30% of my practice time, all have the Coccyx tucked in. That's for sure.

I think the Coccyx gets untucked primarily in transitional movements, when the anatomy itself can't allow it to be fully tucked. However, I can't think of a movement or technique that ends with the Coccyx untucked. If it gets untucked, it is retucked before a technique is finished.

That said, it only a slight tucking, meant to straighten the back and lengthen the spine. This is up to the point in which the entire back is in one line, and is solid as a table. Past that, there is no more tucking. I think Fig1 is identical to our tucking, while Fig4 is more similar to the the healthy neutral position (most people have a bigger curve though).



I find that trying to tuck my Coccyx whenever I can helps me locate the right feel, body alignment and connection. Even if it's impossible to tuck sometimes, it hints as to the right way I should stretch my structure. Such things has helped me correct many of my own mistakes over time without the help of my teacher. I cannot understand how someone practicing my line of XY could've reached the right feel of stretching the structure and spiraling the tendons without this mechanism. It's part of the basic method. Santi, Hun Yuan, etc are all held with this tucking. You use the same structure while you move, so it's reasonable that you maintain the same tucking.

[C.J.W.]

My experience has been that "tucking" is something that should be emphasized at first so that beginners can learn to adjust their structure and feel what's like when done correctly. After they have it down, they must then realize that tucking is a transitional posture in fajin and not going around keeping their butts tucked all day.

[Adam S]

LOL well said CJW

[johnwang]

When you make love to your love one, you can maintain your "internal structure", "internal aligment", and move your whole body as a single unit (straight line from head to toes). You can also make your body dis-connected and only move the lower part of your body. When you apply the 2nd method, you are repeating tucking and untucking. 50% of the time, your tail bone is in untucking position. So what's the big deal about this?

[edededed]

Jonathan: Thanks for the explanation. Your xingyi seems closer to what I have learned in general that much of what is shown/described on the board, it seems - in that I don't see the tucking, untucking thing going on for most xingyi movements - it just stays tucked if possible.

[Tesshu]

@wuyizidi:

Knees right above feet. Thighs parallel to ground. Not leaning. No butt sticking out. Even parallel feet. Freak of nature? No. Just training.

[cdobe]

@wuyizidi:

Knees right above feet. Thighs parallel to ground. Not leaning. No butt sticking out. Even parallel feet. Freak of nature? No. Just training.

Perfect, you're an atheist's nightmare...


PS Can you create a sideview of your stance?

[Leishen]

I like this post because of Wuyizidi's yoga pictures, lol.

[Wuyizidi]

@wuyizidi:

Knees right above feet. Thighs parallel to ground. Not leaning. No butt sticking out. Even parallel feet. Freak of nature? No. Just training.

Perfect, you're an atheist's nightmare...


PS Can you create a sideview of your stance?

Nice. And I'm sure when you post the side-view, there would be minimum leaning. As I mentioned in the final point of my previous post, you can maintain those alignments because you're taking a wide stance (like in the Chen Fake picture I posted), but not in a narrower stance like the one below:




The reason is when you take a wide stance, you're opening your legs - look at the lines created by your thighs, they're not point straight ahead at 12 o'clock right, more like 10 o'clock on the left and 2 o'clock on the right? Once you close your legs so there's no more than 1 foot (length of your own foot) between your two feet, your legs will basically be pointing straight ahead, now the length of your thighs become a crucial factor. That alone makes it impossible for you to go thigh parallel without breaking the leaning and alignment rules.

In Taiji Quan form most postures are narrow like that, requiring putting all the weight on one foot, so please also try going thigh parallel while your whole weight is on:

1. front leg: go up against a wall, put all your weight on front leg, toe of front leg touching the wall, touch your nose lightly against the wall, and make sure it's in one perfectly straight, vertical line with knee and the foot of front leg. Lift up the back leg, don't let it touch ground. Now lower yourself, see if you can go parallel. Since you're up against a wall, you won't have to worry about the nose and the knee going pass the toes. Now you just need someone to take a picture to see when your thigh is parallel, if your butt is sticking out more than you did in your wide-stance horse stance, and if angle of lean has changed.

2. back leg: with your entire back against the wall, touch the heel of one leg against the wall. Make sure the nose is in one perfectly straight, vertical line with knee and feet of supporting leg. Lift other leg off the ground, see if you can go parallel. Since your entire back is on the wall at all times, you won't have to worry about your butt sticking out pass the back of your heels. Now you just have to see in the front if your supporting knee will pass the its toe when the thigh is parallel to the ground.


That nose alignment part is crucial, because in terms of physics, the ideal way to balance something is when the weight is centered directly above the base of support. That's why in Taiji we say "the nose, the knee, and the foot (of the weight bearing leg) should be on one vertical line (viewed from front as well as from the side)". It is said of Taiji Quan's skill "from above (baihui point - center of the crown of the head) to below (huiyin point - mid point on the bottom of torso between genital and anus, and yongquan point - center of foot) is one line, it all depends on rotation to the sides". This way your body is like a ball/sphere, the center line thin as a knife's edge. If they opponent's force is anything less than dead center (nearly impossible when both parties are moving), it will cause the ball to rotate naturally and redirect the force sideways.

As I have found out in my own practice, it is entirely possible to balance on one foot without aligning the nose to the knee and foot (when viewed from front). In fact, the body naturally try to do that. Because leaning in an opposing direction offsets the pressure on the supporting leg, placing the nose directly on top of legs places much more pressure on it. It's amazing how easier things are when you cheat even a little bit! The problem with cheating this way is that in real fighting, you can easily lean far enough so your center of mass is outside the body. Someone then can occupy that spot and throw you around it.

There's nothing wrong with going low, we just need to be aware of the trade-off: when doing majority of the postures where single-weightedness (supporting all the weight on one leg while maintaining nose-knee-foot alignment) are required, if we sacrifice that to go lower, our body is no longer the structure of the perfect sphere required by Taiji Quan skill. So now it's less about skill development than leg conditioning. That's why most postures in the form are single-weighted, and masters say "low stance for basic conditioning, middle stance for skill development, and high stance for fighting".

[hamid]

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[Tesshu]

@wuyizidi:

Knees right above feet. Thighs parallel to ground. Not leaning. No butt sticking out. Even parallel feet. Freak of nature? No. Just training.
[img]mabu%20pic[/img]

Perfect, you're an atheist's nightmare...


PS Can you create a sideview of your stance?

Nice. And I'm sure when you post the side-view, there would be minimum leaning. As I mentioned in the final point of my previous post, you can maintain those alignments because you're taking a wide stance (like in the Chen Fake picture I posted), but not in a narrower stance like the one below:

[img]yoga%20girl%20pic[/img]




1. front leg: go up against a wall, put all your weight on front leg, toe of front leg touching the wall, touch your nose lightly against the wall, and make sure it's in one perfectly straight, vertical line with knee and the foot of front leg. Lift up the back leg, don't let it touch ground. Now lower yourself, see if you can go parallel. Since you're up against a wall, you won't have to worry about the nose and the knee going pass the toes. Now you just need someone to take a picture to see when your thigh is parallel, if your butt is sticking out more than you did in your wide-stance horse stance, and if angle of lean has changed.

2. back leg: with your entire back against the wall, touch the heel of one leg against the wall. Make sure the nose is in one perfectly straight, vertical line with knee and feet of supporting leg. Lift other leg off the ground, see if you can go parallel. Since your entire back is on the wall at all times, you won't have to worry about your butt sticking out pass the back of your heels. Now you just have to see in the front if your supporting knee will pass the its toe when the thigh is parallel to the ground.

No, I won't do these things and post pictures of it so that all of you can get a cheap laugh. What should be the sense of "tests" like that?

With my pic I was referring to the point of sticking butts out while going low. You don't necessarily have to do that - just open your legs a little while sinking into the kua. What the girl with the chair does is "overdoing things". In her position she does not have to stick her cheeks out like that.

Side view - I'll try to take a picture. The one above was with a photographer around - now I'll have to play with self-timer.

[nicklas]

Nice thread! Good valid arguments.

So why do the masters say tucking then? I personally feel the instructions (eg. tuck the coccyx and hollow you chest...) would be much clearer if they phrase them as "don't do this (eg. don't stick your butt out, don't stick your chest out).

I think this is spot on. But also just not "dont stick your as out", if you lift the pelvic bottom you activate deep muscles in the hip/lower back that stabilize the other vice pretty instable waist-area.

@wuyizidi:
Knees right above feet. Thighs parallel to ground. Not leaning. No butt sticking out. Even parallel feet. Freak of nature? No. Just training.

Nice mabu! I love a picture from the side. For me this mabu is not to wide, its almost to narrow. (But im all from an external point of view =) I would guess that you have a slight lean forward, and you have the weight on the heels. (or at least you will have that if you put your arms to your side)
But thats no criticism, i think your mabu is great!

About the yoga girl (for some reason i have trouble stop looking at that picture =) picture 1. Thats not an neutral back. She is slightly rotating her pelvic forward and creating a _flat_ back.

[Wuyizidi]

No, I won't do these things and post pictures of it so that all of you can get a cheap laugh. What should be the sense of "tests" like that?

With my pic I was referring to the point of sticking butts out while going low. You don't necessarily have to do that - just open your legs a little while sinking into the kua. What the girl with the chair does is "overdoing things". In her position she does not have to stick her cheeks out like that.

Side view - I'll try to take a picture. The one above was with a photographer around - now I'll have to play with self-timer.

The point is, one way or another, with pictures you can see the evidence clearly. So take them but don't post them. Or, just find and post any picture of any master that disproves my point.



If the stance is fairly regular/narrow (most of the weight can be supported by one leg), then if you want your upper body to be perfectly straight, and butt not sticking out, then it's impossible to have thigh parallel to the ground. The yoga girl picture demonstrate this: the lower you go, the more parallel to the ground your thigh goes, the more it horizontally pushes your hip back, you have to lean forward so not to fall back, and then back bend so the head goes not go pass knee.