Aggressive and Strong

[DeusTrismegistus]

The Brock Lesner fight on UFC has got me thinking. Brock clearly had less skill. However he simply made up for that by being very aggressive and using his strength. I was a little dismayed to realize I weigh more than that beast, but he has WAY more muscle than I do. The situation of the large muscular fighter vs the smaller but skilled fighter is a common enough hypothetical scenario among martial artists and one I have often heard from martial arts teachers telling prospective students that their art will teach them how to deal with someone like that.

How DO you deal with someone like Brock? He only had 20 lbs on his adversary saturday but steamrolled him without taking any significant damage. I really think this question is something we need to ask ourselves if we want to be as good as we can be at our art, whatever it is. How do you deal with someone who is much larger, and extremelly aggressive?

[Michael Babin]

Re: How do you deal with someone who is much larger, and extremelly aggressive?

Possible Coping Mechanisms:

- throw your wallet on the ground between the two of you and run like hell;

- drop your pants and waggle your butt in a prevocative manner [this could work for a variety of reasons];

- have more skill and experience and/or get just as aggressive.

On a good day for you, you bag the bear; on a good day for the bear, the bear bags you!

P.S. Most recreational martial artists are fooling themselves about their ability to fight a larger and aggressive opponent -- especially one with lots of experience; but self-defense is somewhat different from two trained athletes fighting for prestige and/or money but not as different as some experts would like the masses to believe. If your training never includes getting hit and hitting as well as spontaneous use of combinations against unrehearsed attacks, you're not likely to develop fighting skills that might work on the street. Solo and two-person forms as well as push-hands are only part of the training package -- not the Holy Grail.

[Dmitri]

Forget the weight and size. If you are intimidated by things like that, then your mind is "weak" already, and you already likely have lost, without even starting the fight.
OTOH there are cases where people are stronger/more skilled/etc. than you -- well, in those cases, you will lose. Not a rocket science really... How to deal with the guy? Michael offered some nice options above. How to deal with losing the fight? I dunno, maybe a support group?

[affa]

forget weight and size... but get strong as hell oh yeah... and fight a lot

[JAB]

I would hesitate to say he clearly has less talent. Size was actually not the problem Herring had, Brock totally dominated him by using his weight smartly.
Jake

[ParryPerson]

Thus the problem of "MMA" matches. I know it's been done to death, but most martial artists learn to fight in self defense or life and death situations with no rules, and MMA has many many rules, all of which are designed to make for a longer fight, which ='s more sponsers and more viewers. In most other martial arts sparring, the person who has been flung to the ground has already lost. MMA might be a great sport, but to compare it to martial arts effectiveness in a real life situation against someone bigger is useless.

How many people do you know as big as Brock? How many people that you know as big as Brock would even have any kind of striking and grappling training? He might have had only 20 pounds on him, but I don't know about "Steamrolled". I watch for the opening strikes or until someone bigger falls on someone smaller to start the meticulous and (boring imo) long submission process. MMA cage matches are ruled and setup to reward the more aggressive and stronger person. Thats just how it is.

As far as dealing with someone larger, isn't that kind of taught everywhere that you should use that against them? If they are on top of you on the ground in a bar fight, you've already lost. The goal would be you standing vs them on the ground.

Train train train spar spar spar and don't take needless risks in fighting or situations.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I would hesitate to say he clearly has less talent. Size was actually not the problem Herring had, Brock totally dominated him by using his weight smartly.
Jake

I thought I said less skill not talent? Brock is clearly a talented athlete, but he didn't look as skilled as his opponenet, as technical or whatever you want to call it.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Thus the problem of "MMA" matches. I know it's been done to death, but most martial artists learn to fight in self defense or life and death situations with no rules, and MMA has many many rules, all of which are designed to make for a longer fight, which ='s more sponsers and more viewers. In most other martial arts sparring, the person who has been flung to the ground has already lost. MMA might be a great sport, but to compare it to martial arts effectiveness in a real life situation against someone bigger is useless.

How many people do you know as big as Brock? How many people that you know as big as Brock would even have any kind of striking and grappling training? He might have had only 20 pounds on him, but I don't know about "Steamrolled". I watch for the opening strikes or until someone bigger falls on someone smaller to start the meticulous and (boring imo) long submission process. MMA cage matches are ruled and setup to reward the more aggressive and stronger person. Thats just how it is.

As far as dealing with someone larger, isn't that kind of taught everywhere that you should use that against them? If they are on top of you on the ground in a bar fight, you've already lost. The goal would be you standing vs them on the ground.

Train train train spar spar spar and don't take needless risks in fighting or situations.

I actually know more than a couple people who weigh more than Brock, myself included, but no one as well muscled as he is.

There wasn't much of a submission process. Brock had ample opportunity to submit him but either didn't know how, or didn't want to. I don't know of any of the rules that might have helped out Brocks opponent if he wouldn't have had to follow them except maybe the rule against running away.

[Dillon]

Thus the problem of "MMA" matches. I know it's been done to death, but most martial artists learn to fight in self defense or life and death situations with no rules...

I know this has also been done to death, and we'd derail the thread if we discussed it here, but I suspect that most martial artists DO NOT learn to fight in life or death situations. There's not nearly enough pressure in most training to begin to prepare you for that sort of thing.

[Ian]

Get the hell out of the way, obviously.

[Dmitri]

There's not nearly enough pressure in most training to begin to prepare you for that sort of thing.

I agree, and I would take this even further -- there cannot be an adequate training system that would prepare you for this. You can come very close "mechanically", but you still know it's training, that you won't really hurt (forget "kill") your training partners or they - you. And so your hormones aren't firing in the same patterns and/or at same levels of intensity as the real thing, etc. You will likely be a "different person", if you know what I mean, when the shit hits the fan.

The closest thing I guess would be to train with live weapons, like some FMA guys do, but even then your behavior is inherently different from when you know your life is actually in danger.

IMHO best things you can train are awareness/sensitivity, and to keep your composure/presence of mind as much as possible, try to avoid getting "emotionally involved". Keep your "spirit" strong, fuck their intimidation attempts. Treat your enemy as a dummy with arms and legs that came alive or something and is trying to hurt you. Nearly impossible to do that well, but that seems like a worthy goal at least to me. (That is, of course, in addition to all the "mechanical" training you should also be doing.)

[DeusTrismegistus]

Get the hell out of the way, obviously.

And do what?

[Darthwing Teorist]

Forget the weight and size. If you are intimidated by things like that, then your mind is "weak" already, and you already likely have lost, without even starting the fight.

I agree.

[Josealb]

Anyone with two cents of thought would smile and be really mellow and misdirecting, while at the same time looking for the closest hard or sharp thing to grab. I bet you can talk your way out of it 99% of the times, and im ok with a 1% chance of hitting the guy with a bottle or something else and walking away fast afterwards. Martial arts is not only about doing piquan applications...its also about awareness and hitting with whatever you can grab to avoid getting mauled by a 300 pound guy.

On another note...if a big guy sees a small guy, that is not at all scared and has a look that goes right thru people, he might rethink some things.

Time to lay off the burgers if you weight more than Brock, seriously.

[jchoe]

Heath Herring sucks. He just has a lot of heart and experience. He couldn't even finish Chiek Kongo on the ground when he's suppose to be a better ground fighter. Brock is a national wrestling champion. Brock controlled Heath very well on the ground and won. Of course, it helped a lot that he's a freak of nature and was very aggressive. I'd say both fighters had mediocre MMA skills.

Brock will probably be submitted by Nogueira or by Barnett via armbar.